By Anonymous on Sunday, August 18, 2002 - 02:28 pm:

Saw a A current affair tonight and was appauled at the opinion to pick-up children who should be sleeping - have raised 2 babies of my own and have a girlfriend who is now in living hell due to her 2 year old who sleeps on average 6-8hrs a day in total - the child has heaps of behavioural problems due to being totally tired continually - she screams the house down for 2/3 hours at night if you try to put her to bed - my girlfriend works and has tried to be the best possible mother to her child and never established any sleep patterns for the child as she felt cruel to let her cry - I am really worried at the state her life and the babies and wish someone who writes books on these things could walk in my girlfriends shoes - the babies father is a chef and works odd hours - the baby has never learned to sleep thru his coming and goings and now waits up at night till 11.00 so that she can have some quality time with daddy before she goes to bed -

Childcare can not get this baby to sleep during the day she has to be removed from her room and placed in the prinipals office until she stops screaming whilst the other children sleep - my girlfriend is a walking zombie due to sleep deprevation and so is her 2 year old -

If sleeping patterns had been established when the child was much younger she would not be in this predicament now - she should have never been told to pick up the baby when it was crying when it should have been sleeping - now if she tries to put her down the performance is so huge you can hear the 2 year old screaming in the next street.

Really worried
friend

By Pinky on Sunday, August 18, 2002 - 02:29 pm:

Dear friend,
you are obviously a caring friend and deeply concerned about your friends difficulties with her child.

Please dont misinterpret what I said in the few seconds on A Current Affair -in my books I do talk about helping to "gently" encourage rhythms to the day, bedtime routines and sleep cues - these dont have to involve leaving little (or bigger) babies to cry.
I really think each mother knows her own child best and understands when the cries are simply a bit of a protest or the expression of a deeper need.

I hate the idea of imposing rigid schedules on any infant and generally babies settle into their own ryhthm if parents are simply aware of the baby's cues and offer a supportive environment.

I cant judge what has happened with this poor litle child but if she has been left to cry for two to three hours this clearly has not "taught her" to sleep. I am sure there are security/separation issues around the way she is being treated at childcare -many litle ones actually reverse their sleep patterns when they are in childcare as though they need to stoke up on mummy/dady time to make up for the daytime separations. It seems very punitive to put a child in the principals office until she stops crying - this is surely teaching her to deny her emotions. It would be far better to try and work out what is happening here -why is she so upset, for instance and what support would be helpful for the parents.
Remember, babies/children have emotional needs as well as hunger/ pain etc.

Personally, I would recommend an evening massage to help this little one relax and reconnect with her mum after work/ extra special time together -perhaps a story or game then later in the evening, a regular bedtime routine such as a warm bath to help her relax(with a few drops of lavender for extra calming effects) -bathing with one of the parents could be a good way to catch up on parent time. I would also recommend using "Music for Dreaming" a wonderful continuous tape/Cd of lullabies played in the 3/4 rhythm by members of the Melbourne Symphony orchestra - I would turn off television -the noise and lights are very stimulating to little nervous sytems- and try to keep the evenings as calm as possible to let this little one recharge -at childcare she probably has very little quiet, personal space.
Many children (and adults) find it difficult to "wind down" after a busy day.

It would also be sensible to check into the possibilty of food intolerance/ allergies . These can affect behaviour and something as simple as a build up of fluid in ears can be painful when a baby is lying down (not that I guess this little one is lying down at her age!!)- see the food intolerance network link on my links page - a wide range of additional resources is listed in both my books (parenting By heart includes information about older children as well as babies).
Then , of course, there is the option of taking the child into the parents bed -many parents find this solves the problems of children catching up with mummy/ daddy time - and dont worry about "bad habits"- when childen feel secure they will happily move back to their own beds -It is wise though to make all such changes gradually and lovingly.
It is always better to uncover the reasons for infants (or anyones) distess, than leaving a distressed person to cry.
The mum obviously needs support too, not blame. it isnt as simple as saying she should have **** ??whatever??
babies needs constantly change and security is important at any age - leaving little ones to cry only teaches themmthat they are helpless. We do want them to reach out to us when they are older and in trouble at all -we cant have it both ways if we ignore them when they are little.

Perhaps you could read my books before judging - there are 100 OTHER ways to calm the crying, without upsetting either baby or parent.
Pinky

By Anonymous on Monday, September 2, 2002 - 01:58 pm:

Dear Friend
I really recommend you read Pinky's books as there is a lot of great information and ideas in there about how to get a baby to sleep. I am increasinly concerned at the amount of people who think you should be able to "teach a baby to sleep' Babies by their very nature are dependant on their mothers, and need nurturing, not rules and regimentation.It is simply unnatural in my opinion to expect a baby to sleep, away from its mother, just because it may be convenient.It is only recently that people have decided to try to put babies down in separate rooms and expect them to sleep-Most cultures and societies have always co slept with their babies.Has your friend considered trying this? It is the best way for many people, and is a lot more natural than trying to impose strict bedtime routines IMO.Some children are more high needs than others, and surely you can see that it is your friend trying to force this child to sleep (not that I'm blaming her, she is tired and desperate and needs sleep and who can blame her)that is causing more of a problem.It is instinctual for a mother to pick up a crying baby, I beleive the child abuse, is leaving a distressed child to "cry it out" alone.

By Jill Curtis on Friday, September 20, 2002 - 07:59 pm:

May a mother of three and grandmother of seven put in a few words.....poor poor baby (and mother) if the baby is left to scream for 2/3 hours. Rush to the nearest shop, and if you are a really worried friend, buy Pinky's book and help your friend to enjoy her baby.

By Anonymous on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 05:20 pm:

I too have a "non-sleeper" for a child. She is now nearly 5 years, and sleeps well, but it has taken this long to get her to this stage. My little darling is sensitive to colours. If I allow her to have any she "goes off the planet" (her words), and can't settle.

We now have her in a routine for bedtime. It is very flexible, often we have friends over, or we go out. Most nights we have a bath, either together or just her and her brother. Then dinner in her pyjamas and a quiet story, cuddle and kiss, lights out, then she and her brother chat for a short while then they go to sleep. She shares a room with her 3 year old brother for now. There is no question about what goes next or whether or not they will go to bed because they know their routine. I have written it onto some paper and covered it in contact so that they can tick off what they have done.

Without a routine my daughter would stay up all night, and in fact on the occasional night when the routine doesn't happen (when life gets in the way) she finds it very difficult to settle.

By Anonymous on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 07:50 pm:

I have a four month old baby who I have been co sleeping with since his birth. My son is a cat napper, he sleeps nuemrous times throughout the day but not for long. he wakes frequently at night to feed. The fact that he sleeps next to me has meant limited sleep disruption for myself and my partner. Recently, due to pressure from many people my partner and I tried a day program at a mother and child centre that uses the controlled crying method in an attempt to get him to sleep longer. we were told that our instincts are wrong, our flexibility was wrong,all babies should sleep 18 hours per day, we should not be sleeping with him and we should leave him to cry. we were also told that their method was a 100% succesful and if it didnt work, we were not doing something properly.He slept no longer at the centre or when we got him home and tried this method for three days, causing us all great distress. He was impossible to resettle and awoke form sleep in tears, when previously he had awoken happily. One day he became completely inconsolable, and we made a decision not to continue with this method. he is now back in my bed, we are all getting far more sleep than friends who leave their baby to cry, and our baby is a happy baby. I cant stress enough the importance of believing in yourself and your mothering.

By Liams Mama on Monday, December 2, 2002 - 10:12 pm:

Hi

I co own a forum which is all about alternative parenting methods such as co sleeping, babywearing, gentle discipline, extended breastfeeding etc. We also have links to many state based support grpoups for attachmnet and alternative parenting. I am a moderator of the Melbourne AP group too. I wrote one of the above "annoymous" quotes about the benefits of co sleeping-I forgot to put a name though LOL.
Sleeping with a baby or toddler is completely natural, whereas, in my opinion, sleep training, especially controlled crying, and cry it out, is not.Anyone who does this, please dont feel guilty, you are doing the best possible thing for your child.

If anyone is interested in the forum, it can be found at www.alternativebaby.net
or e mail me fuschia@alternativebaby.net for any more info

Jayne

By Anonymous on Friday, May 23, 2003 - 03:54 pm:

I have a 13-month old who has never slept through the night. She is a happy, bright, beautiful child (believe me- everyone stops us on the streets!) who is affectionate and independent. I felt guilty about co-sleeping and going to her when she wakes in the night, until I spent time in Japan due to my husband's work. While there, I met many breastfeeding mothers of all nationalities and was reassured that what I was doing was right for my child and me. Let's not forget that many more babies in the world sleep with their parents than those that don't!

By Anonymous on Sunday, July 20, 2003 - 12:14 pm:

A word in support of 'controlled crying' or call it what you will I had a premature baby born at 28 weeks and by the time he was six months I was seriously sleep deprived because I constantly attended to his crying through sleep time(through guilt at our separation I now feel) rather than letting him settle himself. I spent a week at a sleep/feeding/settling program in Sydney...it literally saved my life and possibly his..I had reached a stage of complete breakdown before I went there, spent a fantastic week of support and encouragement and came home with a baby who would happily sleep 12 hours a night as well as two good naps a day. I never again heard my baby cry in the night until he was sick...he is 10 and still sleeps beautifully without disturbing himself or us unless he is ill or distressed from a bad dream.

I don't expect every baby will respond in the same way...but it was a complete life saver for me..I was at the stage of driving off a cliff before I went there..and became a loving, happy mother with a loving happy and thank heaven..healthy baby who I cherish every day.

Thank you to all the wonderful staff..you know where you are

By Pinky on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 09:42 pm:

Hi Anonymous,
I think there is a spectrum of advice/ treatment - call it what you will - that is labelled 'controlled crying' - it's a dreadful term. And there is also a range of care available at mother baby units - from wise and gentle people who nurture and support mothers and teach them practical skills such as reading their babies cues -to all out "baby boot camps" where mums and babies are simply separated until the babies "give up" . I believeALL mums need support and nurturing - although goodness knows this seems to be scarce in the modern community.

It is a pity this support isnt like a fence around the top of the cliff so mums dont end up over the edge - at the "bottom" before help is available.

Sadly, recently, much "help" comes in the form of advice to control cry very tiny babies and generally no other alternatives are being offered. This is not supportive to mums or safe for babies.

The thing to remember is that it's not somehow "weak" to ask for help and if one does check into a mother baby unit, you don't have to do ANYTHING that doesnt feel right for you and your baby - its still YOUR baby! Accept whatever help is offered and leave what doesnt work for you - as anonymous says - all babies are different.

BTW - if you are looking for sleep tips - check out the August issue of Family Circle (Australia) for my article - 15 Ways to help your baby Sleep.

Pinky

By Nola Franic on Thursday, November 6, 2003 - 06:06 pm:

We had our baby sleep in the same room as us for the first six months, but as my husband gets up at 2:30 every morning to go to work it started disturbing her when she started to sleep through. She has since been in her own room in a cot.

Just recently she was sick and now she often wakes during the night and wont sleep until she is in my bed, at first i didnt like this as she used to kick me and wriggle too much and kept me awake but she has now learnt to stay on her side of the bed. She does sleep in her bed most of the night and sometimes all night. She is now 18 mths and still breastfed so sometimes she just wants to feed and cuddle, as she usually wakes when my husband has left for work there is no problem. I have found that she will sleep that little bit longer with me and usually plays nicer all day. So i would suggest that maybe trying to sleep together, even if it is just until they are asleep and then put them in their own bed, it has worked for me. Good Luck and hopefully good sleeping.

By Janet on Sunday, January 11, 2004 - 12:34 am:

Dear Everyone,
thank you for all these great comments and suggestions. I have an 8 week old bub who sleeps with us. He's in bed right now with his dad while I play on the net! ;-)
I have found that even though he wakes frequently when he's having a growth spurt - and I mean frequently, every hour on the hour sometimes - I sleep much better than people told me I would before he was born. I'm not much good when I'm sleep deprived so I was a bit apprehensive about how a new baby would be for me. People tell you such awful stories about how they cry all night and you never sleep until they leave home. Well, maybe a little before ;-). My baby is relaxed and confident and I'm sure it's because he knows his needs will be met asap both day and night. My partner's parents are staying with us at the moment and this is their 6th grandchild. They are amazed at how calm and happy he is and how relaxed and happy we are with him. He cries when he gets overtired and he cries to be fed but only a very little as I can usually pick his mood very quickly from the cues he gives out and catch him before he gets distressed. I find wrapping him is good as he startles and it wakes him up. If I wasn't sleeping with him I think he would have a much harder time of that too. Sometimes at night he startles and even though he is still very drowsy he lets out some little squeaks so I speak softly to him and he settles straight away without any trauma. If he wasn't in my bed that couldn't happen. I also feel that how you feel about babies and sleep can affect how you deal with it. I felt before he was born that since babies cry and they don't sleep like adults it was better to just accept that and go with the flow. I haven't tried to take over the world since he's been born but to take it easy and just live on baby time. He's only going to be this little for such a short time I think it's really worth it for us. He happily goes out to dinner to restaurants and sleeps in his pram when he's had enough breast and chat with other people at the table. If we're with friends he goes on their bed just as if he was at home. I always take one of his own rugs from home so it smells familiar when he's in other people's environments. He just had his first NYE party where he went to bed at 9pm and we had to put him in the car still asleep at 12.30am to bring him home. He's also starting to know the difference between day and night now and expecting play in the day and not at night. During the day he mostly sleeps in our bed alone or in his pram while at night he sleep with us both and I use a very dim light if I can't feel to attach him properly. So it's different at those times and he knows it. We also keep nappy changes to a bare minimum at night. If a pooey nappy upsets him his daddy changes it but otherwise we let him sleep and put a good barrier cream on his last night time nappy. Often at night he doesn't even open his eyes to feed, he just points his face at me and opens his mouth. It's like being in bed with a baby bird! One useful tip a friend gave me was to get a touch lamp and put a 25 watt globe in it. For night feeds I put it on the lowest setting and that way I can see enough to attach him but it doesn't wake him or his daddy up. Then the next brightness up from that one is enough that I can read in bed. Great! People at both our workplaces tell us that we look way too rested to be parenting a new baby so we sing the praises of cosleeping your baby. I can't tell you the thrill of when he wakes for his morning feeds (at a decent hour like 7 - 9am roughly) and gives me a huge smile and a big laugh when he sees me smiling at him! Often I lie in bed with him and he plays and gurgles and then we go back to cleep together for a little sleep in before we get out of bed. Lovely!

By Terri Anderton on Monday, January 19, 2004 - 08:54 pm:

I am very interested in all of your experiences with young (and not so young) babies and children, and their sleep patterns. I am learniing about mothering my beautiful nearly 12 week old baby boy and find myself quite confused and lacking in confidence when it comes to his day time sleeping. Luckily for me and my partner our wee boy is pretty good at night, sleeping for around 2-4 hours (it seems to get shorter as morning approaches) and feeding well when he wakes, then settling back down again well too. But during the day time he only seems to sleep for 40 minutes at a time. The M&CH Nurse and other 'health professionals' constantly say that he needs more than that in one go, and honestly I'd love it if he slept for a little longer and then was more happily awake during his waking times. He now suffers from eczema and I have no idea whether its his lack of sleep, my stress...Also I am trialling 'patting' him to sleep, and back down again when he stirs after 40 minutes. I feel very confused about this practise, as I believe in the crying as only form of communication, and therefore don't want to shut him off...sometimes he's not crying, just drifting or tossing and turning...sometimes he cries and they peak in a minute and then he zonks out. Everytime I pat him I wonder whether I'm shutting him out, but then he seems like such a happy little lad with grins and chortles when he's well rested. Oh you would't believe how I second guess his every move, and I can't seem to find any 'attachment' proponents who can give me guidelines - just the health nurse who recommends the patting approach. I have a sling but being a long baby he looks very scrunched up and uncomfortable when I try and lie him in it, and he doesn't yet have the head control to sit up in the sling.
I guess what I'm hoping for is some kind of guidance as to how to help/whether to help him sleep during the day, or whether 40 minute windows are sufficient. I have to admit that the 40 minutes of sleeping boy and then the 1 1/2 hours of awake boy make me wonder how to get the minimum of chores done in a day, let alone the ideal of 'having a nap when he does', giving him adequate tummy time (which so far he dislikes), applying all of the sorbolene required to keep his skin supple in the gentlest possible way, and god forbid, actually having a bit of a play, or a dance or some FUN together...
I'd love your views
another parent uncomfortable with 'controlling' comfort or crying

By Pinky on Monday, January 19, 2004 - 11:58 pm:

Hi Terri,
You sound a bit bamboozled by all the advice you are getting - trust yourself- you do know what feels right for you and your baby - if he only sleeps for 40 minutes and is reasonably happy then that will be fine for him. Really, how are you supposed to live? -standing over a cot patting all day when you may as well be enjoying another cuddle or a little play together -or even going for a walk in the fresh air. And with some luck he'll have another catnap later.

Some babies simply are catnappers - and having just come back to earth after spending 4 days at the 9th World congress on Infant Mental Health, Id love to pass on something that may help - Professor James McKenna, an eminent Sids and infant sleep researcher (see my co=sleeping links to his website) reminded us that all the infant sleep requirement charts (ie how long the average baby "should" sleep) were compiled in the 50s by observations of solitary sleeping, bottle fed babies -these babies lack sensory stimulation and were being fed cow milk that has curds requiring longer to break down than human breast milk. This is not a normal reflection of how babies are supposed to sleep. Also I met LOTS (?Everyone there) of psychiatrists and psychologists who are appalled at the prevalence of controlled crying/ baby sleep training.

So Terri - relax and try to surround yourself with people who will support you - you are a gentle caring mum who sounds really in tune with your baby - trust yourself, trust your baby and be gentle on yourself.

If you live in Melbourne, you will certainly find gentle mums at my infant massage classes and at the request of mums who want to "continue" I am now offering weekly Gentle Beginnings discussion groups at Oakleigh (rooms at a health food shop with juice bar) plus a fortnightly discussion group at Hawthorn, as well as massage classes at both venues - massage is a lovely way to tune in and relax with your baby too -and no pressure to "perform" and do one more thing to be a perfect mum! Just enjoy the nurturing space together as you meet other likeminded mums and the babies "chat" to each other.

Re tummy time - maybe your bub would enjoy simply lying against your chest as you sit back and gradually lie/ lean back further, or across your knees or supported under his arms by a rolled up towel as you stroke/ massage his back -perhaps with a mirror in front of him to look into as a diversion to encourage increasingly lomger spells. If he wont do tummy time for long, just do shorter periods more often. Tummy time doesnt have to be done straight on the floor.

Re excema - lack of sleep is not a factor - often removing an allergen ie dairy products from your own diet can help. If you try this it needs to be done thoroughly and consistently for 2 weeks to see results as the proteins can take this long to be eliminated from your system.

Best wishes,
Pinky

By Janet on Tuesday, January 20, 2004 - 12:21 am:

Hi Terri,
it's amazing how differently they all sleep, isn't it?! My bub (9 weeks) has taken to waking up, playing about an hour then giving all the sleepy signs but when I put him to bed he is unbelievably wide awake immediately. So it's up for another hour or so until he really is sleepy not just sending me confusing messages... Sometimes during the day - only over the last week though - he has been having really short sleeps for him, say about an hour. I have discovered that if he sees the tv for more than about 10 minutes (he's only just started being able to see it) he gets overloaded and distressed so I've moved where he has toys to lie with on the floor and he seems to be calmer. He sleeps very well at night still for which I'm grateful! They change their habits so fast they're more like hobbies than habits. So I just try to keep up!
Hope you're feeling encouraged by Pinky's message. I am!
Best wishes,
Janet

By Anonymous on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 08:45 pm:

My baby is 10 months now and sleeps by herself during the day and the first part of the night after which she comes into bed with us. Which my husband and I both greatly enjoy having lovely cuddles and she breastfeeds at quite regular intervals. I don't find this too tiring, I guess our sleep cycles are matched but I am wondering when others have found that babies sleep through using this type of parenting. As opposed to other methods where babies sleep through from about 4 months or so.

At the moment she goes to bed at about 8pm and wakes first around 12pm and then comes into bed with us waking every few hours for feeds (well little feeds) until we get up.

By Anonymous on Thursday, March 25, 2004 - 12:09 am:

my partner and I are at odds as to what to do with our 5 month old baby. He wants to employ the controlled crying technique and I really dont believe it is good for her. She gets very very distressed and it breaks my heart when she finally does go to sleep I cant sleep for hours becuase my heart is broken. She has almost always slept through the night and is a very happy girl. But before when I was putting her to sleep she would not go to bed till midnight and then would wake at 10am have a feed and go back to sleep till midday. It worked for me and bub but not my partner and it is cuasing alot of tension between us. Is there anyway to compromise between the two techniques??

By pinky on Friday, March 26, 2004 - 10:01 pm:

Hi Anonymous,
This is soo hard when you are torn between your baby and partner - your instincts are more attuned to your baby - who carried her before she was born etc?
I guess you all know my thoughts on controlled crying - and any version of it - if in doubt please have a look at the co-sleeping links - not to convince you that a family bed is the only option but there is some great info on infant sleep (what is "normal") as well as the Australian association of infant mental health policy statement on controlled crying. we all need ammo when we are swimming against the tide and sometimes "reading aloud" to our partners can help educate them.

Sometimes dads can be persuaded to "try something for a week/ 2 weeks" - whatever time you feel sounds reasonable .

Perhaps you could try allowing your little one to go to bed at "her" normal time (she doesnt understand why you are changing the rules), then wake her (gently) a little earlier in the morning - say at 9.30am the first couple of days,and then also wake her earlier after her morning sleep. Gradually move this waking back half an hour at a time, as she gets used to this shift.

If your baby has had lots of sleep during the day, she will be upset and confused about being put to bed early. After a week or perhaps a bit longer you may find you have her going to bed earlier. You will have to be consistent and not "sleep in" yourself. This is a much more gentle way than making her cry it out.

Perhaps hubby feels he is missing out as this isnt his sleep cycle and he isnt getting any time alone with you, especially if he is going to work and is tired - try giving him a loving approach too. Its such a big adjustment for everyone and often guys feelings of "abandonment" are due to earlier memories of their own.

You sound really attuned to your baby and this is wonderful I hope this offers you a compromise.

Pinky

By Anonymous on Sunday, April 18, 2004 - 05:46 pm:

Pinky,

Alot of your suggestions and advice makes sense to me. I am a first time mum who didn't cope well in being a mother at all in the beginning as my baby just would not sleep at all - I look back at those months and still cringe! However, I attended sleep school because I was getting no sleep. There was great caring staff at the centre who taught me how to read my baby's tired signs more carefully. My baby was 3months old when I attended a mother and baby unit and they never advocated controlled crying for little ones. However, I was told that co-sleeping was a "no-no". So I stopped. The mother and baby unit was good for me as I learn't to understand my baby's routine. She does sleep well during the day and night, however, she is back in our bed (in the early hours of the morning) as she seems to need the closeness. It's quite interesting still to be told by maternal health nurses that co-sleeping even for such a few hours is not a good idea. Its a pity that there is not sleep centres around that encourage and nuture natural parenting techniques or even validate what new mums do to calm there babies is OK.

By pinky on Monday, April 19, 2004 - 01:12 am:

Hi ,
I am noticing that some mother baby units are now advocating against controlled crying / comntrolled comforting (while others make my hair stand on end because babies should never be left to "cry it out"). I am sure the Australian Association of Infant Mental Health Policy Statement on controlled Crying/ Controlled comforting has played a part here -(see a link to this in my cosleeping links at the links page)

It sounds as though you have found a lovely compromise in meeting your baby's needs by watching her cues and responding.

I wholeheartedly agree that a little bit more support for natural options and how to implement these within a safe environment could do with some encouragement. I hear from mums every day who feel at odds with a lot of mainstream "one size fits all" advice. Congratulations on being able to take the bits that suit you and your baby and working them out to fit YOUR family. Lots of mums snuggle with their babies early in the morning - and isnt it delicious!!!

best wishes,
pinky

By Jane Chami on Friday, April 30, 2004 - 02:14 pm:

Hi Pinky,

We have a 15 mth old baby boy who has always had a terrible time sleeping. We do co sleep with him and he does so well until approx 1:00am and then he wakes approx every 40 mins and lets out a blood curdling scream. He has done this since birth. The only way we can settle him is to have him sleep on one of our tummies. This as I am sure you can understand is not ideal. He is very heavy and it means sleep is almost impossible as you cannot roll over or move etc. He had a very traumatic birth experience. Do you think this could have something to do with it ? from 1:00am - 5:00am was when he was in distress. He seems to have such a fear of sleeping, during the day I have to drive him around for 20 mins to get him to have a nap, which often only lasts 45 mins at most and that is it for the day. We are so exhausted and it is putting a real strain on our relationship. We have tried so many things. Do you have any ideas on what may be causing this and how we can fix it?

Please help

Thanks
Jane

By lisa on Thursday, May 27, 2004 - 09:27 am:

have 2 beautiful daughters.first baby slept with us in our bed on and off and always a cot in our room for 19months. she fed every two hours on the dot day and night. i am a strong believer in co-sleeping arrangements. i was told by many friends and family that i would never get her to sleep in her own bed but we employed a regular (not rigid) bedtime routine and she has never left her own bed for ours since she "moved out" so to speak. i could never bring myself to leave my child while she was crying at the point of excess. a gentle reminder that i am with her in the room when she fussed was enough reassurance for her to go back to sleep. even now when she is 3 yo she sometimes talks to me through her room and when i reply she settles herself and continues sleeping ( a result of a sudden separation when baby 2 was born i believe) i am writing a book about breastfeeding at the moment but the underlying message that i hope anyone who reads it will get is that we are intune with our children's needs and our instincts are not wrong ( as anon was told by the physician) i believe we all have it in us to parent with our loving instincts and that humans had done it for thousands of years before society decided it was wrong. please have confidence in your own abilities and keep an open mind with all the advice you receive but YOU make the decision from your heart for if it comes from your heart how can it be wrong. baby 2 will co-sleep with us for as long as she needs and we are all happier for it.

lisa.....
(if anyone has queries about my book have a posting in "You say" breastfeeding book. email me at lisa@dlucas.auzy.net}

By Anonymous on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 02:14 pm:

Pinky
I have beautiful 18 month old daughter. She has not been a very good sleeper, however my husband and I have gone through many sleepless nights, and managed to assist her to sleep though the night by 12 months. I now have a 3 month old boy, and my daughter finds it very difficult to go to sleep. She will not lie down in her cot during the day or night. Every attempt to put her tp sleep ends in crying. She does not like to sleep in our bed either. Instead she will only fall asleep on my lap or my husband's lap.

We do have a bed tome routine, however this no longer works.

Any assitance or advice is welcome.
Please advise which of your books would provide the best help.

By meg on Sunday, August 29, 2004 - 11:41 am:

My baby is 16 weeks and my husband and I have found this journey into parenthood incredible, challenging, rewarding and of course at times frustrating. We continually reflect and learn. The sleeping has been the most challenging. Our baby has always been a settled night-time sleeper and we have implemented a lovely settling routine (based on Pinky's book) of bath, massage, feed, rocking in hammock with CD on. This works really well.

However, daytime sleeps are tricky. When we try a similar routine (cuddle, music and rocking- though no bath, massage or feed) he screams as soon as we enter the bedroom (he sleeps in our bedroom in a hammock). We cuddle (although he isn't a very cuddly baby and arches back and tenses up), then put him in the hammock with soothing words and rock with CD on. He then cries (sometimes screams for anything from 5-30 min.) with us rocking. Part of me says he is overtired/overstimulated and really needs sleep (if he stays awake is he very unsettled) and part of me says he doesn't need to sleep though needs to be with me.

He is so senstive to noise (toilet flushing, phone, sneezing) when we are trying to get him to sleep which makes me think he is quite tense.

He rarely sleeps out though if we have been out to a cafe he usually feeds and then sleeps in my arms. He loves the sling (which he is in a lot, though doesn't sleep in) though dislikes the pram.

Any thoughts on daytime sleep?

Meg

By rebeccab on Monday, November 22, 2004 - 09:22 pm:

pinky,
i am at my wits end. i am nauseatingly 10 weeks pregnant and have a wonderful little boy who is turning one this week. he was a great sleeper until we moved when he was 5 months old and now is a frequent waker overnight. we have a good routine for bed and he sleeps for b/w 4 and 7 hours before he wakes and won't settle. i was just putting up with it but am so bone-achingly tired that i feel i need to do something. last week i counted (stupidly) and i got up to him 19 times. i am so tired. if i can't settle him with soothing words, turning him over, offer of a feed, snuggle with his rabbit, then i bring him to co-sleep. i don't have a philosophical objection to co-sleeping but i need to get some rest. when he does come to cosleep, he is a restless baby and toes in my ears, and a snoring husband who wakes the baby are compounding my sleep deprivation. my health nurse is talking controlled crying and sleep school but i will not allow myself to be conned into thinking that controlled crying is ok for us.
nicholas is a happy baby, developmentally fine and socially alert. he sleeps reasonably well during the day. i love him so much it makes me weep. but i need to feel a bit better about the whole sleep thing. i am prepared to pay for someone to come to my house and assess us or talk to us or help us or something but all the ads i see are controlled crying suport. what else can i do? i really feel i am at the end of my tether.
becc

By Pinky on Monday, November 29, 2004 - 12:33 am:

Hi Becc,
My heart goes out to you - you are bringing back memories for me of my own second pregnancy.

It is really sad that all the support that seems to be offered involves "cry it out" approaches - there are gentle ways but these arent always "quick fixes" . Because, they are desperate, most parents want one quick simple solution and this is why controlled crying has become so popular. Unfortunately, there is often a price to be paid for the quick fix approach -by the child. I have had a lot of emails from parents who have been persuaded to use controlled crying with older babies and young toddlers with awful results- clingy infants for several weeks or months later and I have even heard from 2 parents whose toddlers were saying single words but stopped talking (although they slept after a week of controlled crying). One of these babies had refused all physical contact from his mum for a year after controlled crying.

When you have developed a strong bond by meeting your baby's needs it is a pity to then suddenly "change the rules" for him.


Its really difficult to help individually in an email alone but I will try and offer suggestiosn based on common reasons for waking at this age.

It is best to try and look at WHY your child is waking and at this age (12 months) there is usually a combination of reasons - consider your baby's development - emotional (separation anxiety is at a peak) , physical (teeth / new foods/ mobility) and neurological development can all affect your baby's behaviour. Singly, these things may not have a great effect but added together, there is a bit of stress for a little person - they also pick up on our own tension and ambivalence (including the stress of conflicting advice that goes against your own heart)

You say your baby is "restless" when you bring him to cosleep - this may be the key - it is normal for infants of this age to "practice" new skills in their sleep (ie crawling/ standing/ walking) - great for brain development but hideous for parents as the babies bump themselves on their cots and wake up. Some parents find taking the baby out of the cot and putting them to sleep on a large mattress on the floor helps - make sure the room is safe in case your child rolls or crawls off the mattress.

Another possible reason for restlessness is diet - check out Sue Dengates website (http://www.fedupwithfoodadditives.info)re food intolerance especially to salicylates - these are naturally occuring chemicals often present in healthy foods such as tomatoes (tomato paste)apples, oranges, strawberries, grapes etc. Sometimes minor alterations to diet can be helpful - I am not suggesting strict elimination diets as these need to be professionally supervised, but often moderate changes do help.

There is also some recent evidence that low levels of Essential fatty acids can predispose children to poor sleep patterns - if you are breastfeeding you can add these to your own diet by eating oily fish eg salmon, tuna or taking supplements such as fish oil or Efalex capsules - they are recommended during pregnancy - check with your health care provider regarding supplements for infants.

One possiblity for "co-sleeping" that gives you more space is to butt the cot up against the edge of your bed - make sure there are no gaps between cot and bed to trap baby - this way you can put your hand out and offer comfort without getting out of bed.

As I have mentioned an email isnt ideal to help you (you can email me personally) but please do listen to your own heart - if anything feels wrong to you it probably is. You are a sensitive mother meeting your baby's legitimate needs but you also need support - consider how you can get help- how about somebody coming to play with your child during the day so you get rest? I could recommend a doula - where do you live? Taking turns with hubby - even at weekends? Daytime naps when your child is napping?

At a recent toddler workshop I held we had an interesting discussion on sleep- of 14 families - only one child was consistently sleeping all night long every night and many families had very creative night time arrangements from taking turns with partners to amazing bed set ups - it really is common for toddlers to have intermittent waking - not something parents have created so please dont blame yourself.

I know you are desperate right now but even if you simply meet your childs needs as you are doing, he will sleep better in a few months as this intense stage of development passes - he is NOT manipulating you! If you want to change things bear in mind the mantra "Gradually with love" and make just one change at a time.

Pinky

By rebeccab on Monday, November 29, 2004 - 09:11 pm:

thanks for the response, Pinky. I am sure there are others out there in a similar situation but it seems so grim when you are struggling.
we had one sleep through a few nights ago. so i feel all boosted by that at the minute. nicholas has had mild excema reactions to salicilates and perhaps it is worht trying to observe this a little more closely. and i will look at the EFA's. i am a non fish eater, and i don't give it to nicholas as often as i should i think.
i am trying to sleep when he sleeps during the day and have made a decision to cosleep from when he wakes and can't be readily resettled overnight. i am sure eventually he will work it out and feel ok about sleeping in his own bed... won't he?
I think you are right though about a combination of factors leading to a big hard to solve intantly situation, he IS starting to think about walking, he IS sensitive to food, and IS a baby very fond of close contact. i feel more confident to persist and ride it out. i really needed the support though. i have sent you an email personally last week, would love some suggestions of someone to homevisit. thanks,
becc

By Leah Kotsoglo on Saturday, January 1, 2005 - 02:26 pm:

Hi Pinky, I wonder if you can offer any advice regarding my 11 week old daughter. She sleeps okay (not great, just okay) most of the time during the day, but at night time she just won't go to sleep at all. We have been trying what I think is called Controlled Comforting (we learnt this at a Day Stay at Ngala) but she just continues to cry. Sometimes she will appear to fall asleep, but that only lasts a couple of minutes and she wakes again. Last night, as an example, she was awake from 9.30pm until 2am, and she only went to sleep then because I laid her on my chest and rocked her to sleep. I am not against co sleeping, but she won't even sleep in our bed next to us, only if she is on top of us!!! I am desperate for some sleep, and I'm sure it is bad for my daughter to be awake so long as well. I have tried so many things - lights on/off, noise (TV, radio) on/off, massage, relaxing bath, top up feeds. I don't know what else to do. Any suggestions you have would be most appreciated. Thanks, Leah.

By DonnaM on Thursday, February 3, 2005 - 10:03 am:

Pinky,

Help!! I don't know what to do. My little girl is 18 months old, she was born 10 weeks premature and was 1692 grams. From day one I took colostrom down to the NICU and we learnt to breastfeed when she was 5 and a half weeks old and I am very proud of that. Our daughter was very much in a routine of feeds (every four hours) when we brought her home from hospital at the age of seven weeks. We let the routine disappear and let her demand feeds and cuddles. After she had been home about a month we brought her into the family bed and she has remained there since. I didn't know anything about cosleeping I only know that it feels natural and we felt like we were making up for lost time.

Last year our little girl had two more stays in hospital due to viruses that caused respiratory problems (related to her prematurity). They reluctantly let us sleep together in the hospital so she could feed when she needed to. During these hospital stays blood tests were done and she was found to be very low in iron. She is now on incremin with iron and iron rich foods and her levels have improved marketly.

Our baby has always preferred the breast to food. She also falls asleep on the breast. Other than the car... she only falls asleep on the breast. I realised we had a problem a week or so ago when I went away for the day and my partner stayed home with our daughter. Our girl would not have a day time sleep. It seemed she didn't know how to take herself off without the breast. Somehow we got ourselves here (probably through my guilt of our early seperation and feeling like I needed to compensate for that). My baby needs to get herself to sleep and my husband and I need to have time together. My little girl and I were going to bed during the day and she would sleep for 45minutes, I would have to run into the bedroom when she woke to feed and resettle her for another 45 minutes (hopefully). This would happen one to two times a day, depending on her tired cues. In the evenings we do her bed time routine and then I take her into bed and feed her to sleep. She then wakes anywhere from 3-6 times during the night to feed and resettle.

We can't find an alternative to help her to sleep other than do the bedtime routine, including breastfeeding in the lounge room, then Dad reads her "Time For Bed" book and we put her down in her cot and try and teach her to sleep. We can't let her lie there crying ....... we have left the room intermittedly (against our instincts and as a last resort)... this does not feel right for us and we are rather distressed about doing it. We have tried cuddling her to sleep and she fights this and cries for "boob". We are happy to have our baby in bed with us breastfeeding through the night however I want her to be able to settle herself to sleep during the day and first thing at night, I would also like her to eat more (as the paediatrician has recommended we cease the iron supplement with a view to test her iron in 3 months). I have reduced feeding to 3 times a day after food but am a little concerned she is filling up during the night.

How can we teach her to take herself off to sleep and have her choose to eat more food whilst still continuing with the intimacy of feeding and cosleeping??? Are we dreaming?? Please help.... I feel very confused and upset and we want to be clear with our little girl. Also a recommendation on which of your books would be most suitable for our situation would be great. The library is absolutely full of control crying books- not for us!!!!

By rebeccab on Sunday, February 6, 2005 - 09:14 pm:

Donna M,
I have just checked back in after having some personal success with my baby (see my message above from late november, when things were getting rough). I had a look at loads of books and websites and tried to find support in my community from GP, health nurse, other mums and found everyone pushing the controlled crying/comforting barrow, only adding to my feelings of despair and isolation. I felt like I was wanting my cake and eating it too by wanting to get some sleep without having to put my baby to bed screaming. I FINALLY found a book that is helping - THE NO CRY SLEEP SOLUTION by Elizabeth Pantley. I did have to buy it as not a lot of libraries seemed to have it but it has changed my life. No quick fixes like controlled crying people claim but we started 3 weeks ago and my baby no longer feeds to sleep and resettles quickly overnight and is waking less (down to 1-4 times, much better and still improving). The author is a mother of 4 and a prolonged breast feeder and cosleeper but offers options for all combinations of feeding and sleeping arrangements. I have found that it is really easy to tailor to your own needs. I am really enjoying the process, and am amazed at how much closer I feel to my little boy.
Remember that because your journey with your baby has been one where you have felt so intensely how precious her life is, that nothing you have done is wrong. You simply find yourself in a situation that has been established by you all and you are ready to change it. you can and you can do it gently and everyone will be ok.
Good luck, leave a message to let me know what you think.
becc

By pinky on Monday, February 7, 2005 - 09:29 am:

Dear Donna and Rebecca,
Sorry, I didnt respond earlier.

Thankyou for your sensitive respinse Rebecca.

Donna, you have been doing a fabulous job - since your baby was born premature, you will have helped her through the trauma of this early separation by being so responsive. This will have helped her develop trust in you and her world. This separation anxiety she is expressing is normal and healthy at her age - you (and your breasts!)are the centre of her universe!

Babies who have early separations and stress are likely to have strong separation anxiety - this shows they are forming good bonds and attachment with you. I receive quite a few emails from parents whose babies and toddlers become excessively clingy and hypervigilant when they have tried to do controlled crying - in many cases, it makes things worse ie they become MORE wakeful! This must be especially upsetting to a baby who has had a stressful beginning.

As REbecca has mentioned, there are gentle ways to change things - the mantra that I use is "gradually with love". Please bear in mind that you have done NOTHING WRONG.

You would possibly find Parenting By Heart very reassuring as although it starts with birth (since that is the first step into the unknown that we make on behalf of our child), it takes a holistic look at mothering with confidence - there is a sleep chapter with parents stories too - this shows there are different ways to suit different families. 100 Ways to Calm the Crying is more specifically about crying (day and night)-I also offer gentle information on sleep and settling and outline how you can gradually change from breastfeeding to sleep, but it is mostly geared to younger babies (under a year). AS REbecca mentioned , this appreoach isnt a quick fix but when done gradually with love, any transition is more permanent and less stressful- why would you undo all the great work you have already done?

You may be right in thinking that your baby is 'stoking up at night' since you have cut down her daytime breastfeeds. breastmilk is still an important source of nutrition and immunity - not to mention comfort! It will be a matter of working this out yourself (perhaps including one more day feed to see if this makes any difference at night time)- sometimes when we try too hard to make changes before our babies are ready they 'pay us back' by reacting so we do meet their needs.

Please see your baby's needs as legitimate - I am sure you are doing this - try to find sensible support for yourself - try the Australian BReastfeeding Association to get some positive feedback about your mothering. Also consider that babies are all ready at different times to 'let go' - I found that I could gradually wean off breastfeeding at day sleeps by getting my husband to take the babies for a walk in the stroller around nap time- BEFORE they requested the boob. This wasnt then the senario of me leaving the baby - but the baby going out with Daddy. Soon they felt ok about me not being there at nap times and would snuggle with daddy - just baby steps is the key to all change -and at this age consider that as you remove something (the breast) , at first you will have to substitute another cue (music/ rocking)- gradually, whatever cue you use, this can be shortened (turn the volume down gradually if you are using music/ rock for a shorter period and put your baby down almost asleep, then a few days later, as she is more awake) so that your child will soon fall asleep with a bedtine story and a cuddle (your routine is great) - think "weeks" as Rebecca has mentioned, as you drop one feed at a time (a sleep time feed - either day or night -first, then gradually one of the night feeds -consider the weather and perhaps offer water if it is hot, at just one feed at a time until your baby and your breasts adapt) - there isnt a 'quick fix' if your child isnt ready yet and since this is all she knows, it isnt fair to suddenly 'change the rules' on her.

I am holding a terrific toddler workshop in March in Melbourne if this interests you -our last workshop included a really interesting discussion on sleep.

Best wishes,
Pinky

By rebeccab on Monday, February 7, 2005 - 04:03 pm:

ooooh, pinky. please give details of the workshop.
becc

By Pinky on Monday, February 7, 2005 - 06:34 pm:

Check out my seminar page - theres a link from the front page under events to all my classes. Theres a registration form there too.
Pinky

By DonnaM on Tuesday, February 15, 2005 - 09:34 pm:

Hi Becc
Thanks so much for your message, compassion and recommendation... it is very much appreciated! I bought "The No-Cry Sleep Solution" from Australian Breastfeeding Association and received it late last week. What a great book! Just to know you're not alone is comforting. We've started logging Maiya's sleep patterns etc. today and will be starting with the sleep plan as of tomorrow. Some of the ideas we already had in place but we couldn't work out how to take it to the next step without the crying thing. Thank you again.
Wishing you a whole nights sleep
Donna x

By DonnaM on Tuesday, February 15, 2005 - 10:20 pm:

Dear Pinky
Thank you!! I appreciate you getting back to me, and for your wonderful advice. Sometimes you can feel very alone... since it's easy to feel lost amongst the literature available on parenting-both in the library and bookstores (particularly when 99% advocate control crying). As you were writing to me... I'd already started feeding Maiya again on request and I was going back to our "nursing to sleep" pattern... as her distress and lack of sleep was heart wrenching as well as the fact that I was feeling like a zombie!
We are going "gradually with love"... and slowly changing the sleep cues!
Looking forward to the Terrific Toddler workshop next month. I've sent you an email to register.
Thanks again
Donna

By rebeccab on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 10:47 am:

Donna,
Am so glad to read that you seem much more positive and connected to your 'mummy bones' as my friend calls it (you really do feel it in your bones, don't you. sometimes yo don't know what to do but you know right to your mummy bones when something isn't right). Glad you like the book. I read it in half a day and have also re-read both of pinky's books (calm the crying and parenting by heart, both great). I find that the NCSS book is, as you said, stuff you sort of already know but being able to put it all together and have a bit of a plan makes you feel a bit less despairing. My Nicholas has had a bit of an easy week, I am pregnant and tired and my husband has been away working for 5 MONTHS, and I couln't be bothered so it was 4 crys or 4 o clock (then in with mum) for us this week. and I feel perfectly ok about it. Last night we were back on the plan and he is waking so many fewer times, and is so much less panicked when he does that even if I have to sit in his room till he is almost asleep, he is calmly breathing and gradually going back to sleep, no picking up needed, just shhhing and key words (night night, I love you) every now and then. I feel so empowered knowing that I am making gentle changes that he can understand and not be fearful of, and I just feel so close to him. I am listening to my mummy bones, and that's what I signed up for when i signed up for being a mum.
good luck and well done,
might see you at the seminar,
becc

By Pinky on Tuesday, March 1, 2005 - 12:13 am:

Hi becc and Donna,
Just a reminder about the Toddler workshop. I need registration forms to reserve your places - you can down load the form linked to the seminars page and either fax or post it ASAP.

I did a toddler workshop at Geelong yesterday - a big group, a beautiful space and fantastic parents so lots of great sharing. I need to limit numbers here as this venue is smaller -its very lovely though.

Pinky

By Jane Dougherty on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 09:45 pm:

Dear Pinky and readers,
What an awesome web site! I am a mother of four (7.5yrs-6mths)and today I went to a Daystay at Lismore NSW. My almost 6mth old has not been a great sleeper from birth, has Reflux and I am at my wits end from sleep deprivation. As I own and co-ordinate a childcare centre, I have an extremely busy lifestyle (as all mums do), thus I am having difficulty in finding 'time' to help Abe to sleep. I began to read your book "parenting by Heart", whilst at the daystay, today. I was amazed that the centre had your books and raved what a great read they were...when I read that you do not condone "Controlled crying"(or whatever the new vogue name for it is)!!! What were they teaching Abe and I today??? Yes you guessed it...controlled crying!!!
During the day I could handle it without crying myself, because I was amongst others...but now at home, I've tried it, whilst getting dinner ready for the children and whilst my hubby was at touch football. The result? A stressed out baby and I blubbering mummy! He has, however been asleep for 3 hrs now (never heard of)...but after exploring your web site and reading the former messages, I am totally confused!! I don't feel right by letting Abe cry(scream actually) for 40mins...but I've had the result of sleep(isn't that what I was after?).
Your words make so much more sense than allowing a babe to cry itself hoarse....now I'm feeling more guilty than ever.
I will endeavour to hunt down the book the Becc has recommended,as well as securing my own copy of your books. Coming from a rural town like Grafton,NSW, I'll no doubt need to order them. Nonetheless, I can't wait to read "100 Ways to Calm the Crying"...just to confuse myself more!
Love the website and you have found another follower in me...thankyou

By Kimberley on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 10:32 pm:

Hi Jane, sorry you're having a hrad time at the moment. I introduced controlled crying or comforting around 5 months of age with my daughter and found it worked well. Before that, I didn't feel she was ready. I first tried it during the day and put her down before she was too tired, so there wasn't too much distress. I have also been using a dummy which seemed to help with the process. This is what I did, but I'm not advising that this is the right method for you. I have bub's cot in our room, so that way I can tend to her quickly during the night. I usually pop her into our bed after her early morning feed, which is just divine, but I don't tend to sleep that well with her in our bed. In the first 3 months, we pretty much did co-sleeping after I realised she wanted me, not me singing and rocking her cradle.
I wonder if you can do co-sleeping for now and try again later or even have bub's cot in your room. Hope this helps, Kimberley

By pinky on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 12:17 am:

Hi Jane,
mothers are experts at the womanly art of self flagellation arent we??- dont beat up on yourself. I think under stress any of us can be pushed to try things that dont feel right to us.

I dont like controlled crying and there is a growing body of evidence against it, but most sadly, I hate the way it is 'offered' (read pushed) as the the 'only' "sensible" or "reasonable' option.

I am sure for some babies there will be little reaction, but for many the price is extreme clinginess, for others there is learned helplessness (giving up, rather than learning a legitimate skill), there is also evidence that the increased levels of stress hormones involved with repeated episodes of being left to cry can alter the base cortisol levels in the developoing brain , predisposing babies to overreact to stress later in life.

Here are a coupl of links you might (or not) like to read

CONTROLLED CRYING: Australian Association of Infant Mental Health (AAIMHI) POSITION PAPER – includes refs.
http://www.aaimhi.org/documents/position%20papers/controlled_crying.pdf

Why love matters – how affection shapes a baby’s brain .
http://books.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,12084,1262302,00.html

Having given this info tho, I also empathise with your stress levels- having 5 kids I 'get it". It can be really hard to find a balance between mummy survival and perfect mummy who meets everybodies needs.

Do you have any help?? Can you get any even temporarily? Cam you just take bub into your bed for part of the night? Especially if you are busy / separated during the day. Sometimes babies make up for this by needing extra mummy time at night -I feel its a like babies have a little emotional tank that needs filling and will demand this until its needs are met/ tank filled with mummy cuddles. A 'good' baby will extract exactly the care he needs for optimum development.

A good guilt antidote is a dash of Desperate Housewives - pity its going to take a break for a few weeks-Im loving it. I also have a chapter on guilt in Parenting By heart - funny how they recommended it yet still do controlled crying, I have though discovered most people read it and enjoy whatever they want and dont seem affected by what they want to leave, which is great.

SPeaking of tired -I have a dose of flu and must head to bed.
Pinky

By Michelle Fulcher on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 10:06 am:

Hi everyone,
I must also advocate desperate housewives as a good indulgence for any mother. I have also been down the path like many of you, controlled crying not feeling right and having to do research to make up my mind... then educating (convincing) hubby over to my side of the fence. Another good book is the "No cry sleep solution." its written by another mummy just like us. One who did controlled crying but ended up as a blubbering mess herself. Its in no way a quick fix or easy solution, but it IS an alternative. I would also highly recommend pinky's books, but you all know that already! I know that I myself have had a complete attitude turn around. At first I was trying to get him to be a 'good' baby (i.e to sleep through the night, be placid and happy). But now I see surviving the first year as a real acheivement. I know that eventually he will sleep, but I do need to find ways to survive until that day. We all do the best job we know how- and that's all we can hope to do!!

By rebeccab on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 08:04 pm:

Hi Jane,
You will find as much support as you want here. Sounds like you are on the right track.
Stay in touch and let us know how you are doing. If you have trouble getting the No cry sleep solution book, I may be able to help you out with a copy. As for pinky's books, I think you would find them dog eared by all of us and a little hard to let go. See how you go with accessing them.
Good luck and welcome.
becc

By pinky on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 12:18 am:

Hi ladies, thanks for your lovely comments about my books.

Jane,
there is an order form here for my books if you can't find them locally (click on the links on the home page) - it also helps to ask at bookshops so they do get some in - (Anybody who is in bookshops, please!!!) I find it terribly frustrating hearing from people who havent found them in shops -postage is free and I post within 24 hours of receiving orders (most of the time - weekends are a bit tricky obviously), but I figure most orders come from desperate mums so waiting isnt an option.

Hang in there,
Pinky

By Kimberley on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 05:17 pm:

Hi Pinky
I read the controlled crying paper you mention above and it is interesting that no studies have been done to show that it is not detrimental. I think I was mislead when reading Dr Christopher Green's book, Babies! He states also that no studies have been done to show detrimental effects, but suggests that this means there are no detrimental effects. I'm glad I've had it clarified. I'm finding that as my bub gets older (6m+ now), she seems to be more aware of my presence and wants me nearer her. I have found also that she seems better able to understand that it is sleep time, which helps a bit too.
thanks for the info
Kimberley

By Jane Dougherty on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 07:44 pm:

Hello everyone - a happy St Pat's day to you all. It is so overwhelming to have a network of mums at my doorstep..thankyou. I have tears in my eyes knowing that you are all empathetic to my (& millions of other mum's), needs. I know that I am going to relish when the children are occupied or in bed,to log on and read your comments...and hopefully be able to encourage others with their journey through motherhood.
Owning a childcare centre, I have asked several mums, this week, about their experiences with children not sleeping - -and there has been mixed reactions.
I will now go to the papers pinky suggested and continue to read about controlled crying - although I know that I have made my mind up that it really isn't for me. With hubby away in NZ for the oncoming week - I'm certainly not going to try it!again too soon!!1
Thankyou for your encouragement and support.
Jane

By Pinky on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 08:37 pm:

Hi Jane,

You are most welcome.

I find it really interesting to ask, what practices/ routines do you have for sleep time in your child care centre? Assuming you take little ones.

Re controlled Crying - Kimberly, I always say, there is a big difference between "no proof of harm" and "proof of no harm".

If you also look uo the refs in the policy statement, there is some more food for thought.

Pinky

By Kimberley on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 09:52 pm:

Hi Pinky, very true, I wonder from reading all of this info about the importance of responding to babies emotional as well as physical needs in the first 2 years, just what the government bodies are doing about getting the word out there to parents. At present it doesn't seem like much. Do you know of any lobbying that is happening at present or perhaps where I could address a letter about the concerns of being advised not to over-mother my child by child health nurse staff at the local clinic and even hospital staff? Kimberley

By pinky on Friday, March 18, 2005 - 08:23 pm:

Hi Kimberly,
I just called a maternal and child health nurse friend - she encourages you to give feedback about nurses by writing a letter to the nurse and ccing it to her manager -either the maternity unit manager or, for a child health nurse, you can ask at local council who is a coordinator of child health nurses in your area.

She also suggests ccing your letter to the mayor- because he will then have to address the issue at council - now this would set the cat among the pigeons but the mayor is the ultimate 'boss' of council staff.

Maybe we can have a 'clean up'.

It may also be an idea to send feedback to the Association of Infant Mental Health. They are currently working on a policy statement about responsiveness to infants.

PInky

You are free to go to another nurse - if you live in Victoria (I dont know about other states) you can go to any nurse anywhere , there are no area restrictions.

By Kimberley on Friday, March 18, 2005 - 09:33 pm:

Thanks Pinky, will write a letter and hope that it helps. I can post it here for other mums if they want to forward a copy to their relevant parties also. I've stopped going to the early childhood clinic and have our check ups through the GP and the nurse at the local chemist. I know others from my mothers group have done the same as they found the advice very regimented also.
Thanks Kimberley

By Michelle Fulcher on Saturday, March 26, 2005 - 08:07 pm:

Hi, Happy Easter to you all!
I just wanted to share with you a personally very sad CIO story. My brother Denis* and his 3 year old son Jy* came over to visit us on good friday.

About 2 months ago at a family get together, Denis was asking me about TJ's sleep patterns and I told him frankly that TJ was unsettled by our recent move and waking between 5-8 times a night. Denis then told me that I should do what he did with Jy- put him in his cot with some music playing and let him scream until he fell asleep. Well, as most of you know this goes against everything I beleive in, so I politely said "No, I don't think so."
Denis persisted, telling me that this is the only way to get them to sleep through the night and that if I didn't then TJ would become a spoiled brat (this coming from a dad who buys his child a new toy or new clothes every other week!- probably to make up for the emotional detachment, but thats just my opinion). I then tried to change the subject, but Denis continued to try and convince me to let him CIO. At this point I walked away from him.

Anyway, when Denis and Jy decided to pay us a visit on Friday, I braced myself for the CIO debate that was inevitable. I knew though, from an unrelated conversation that his 3 year old still came into their bed during the night on a regular basis.

Finnally Denis asked me "Is TJ sleeping through the night yet?" to which I replied "No."
"How many times does he get up?"
"On a normal night 3, but seeing as he has been sick, its been a lot more."
"Oh" My brother says.
At this point Jy, who was playing quietly on the floor, sat up. "I think he is scared" Jy said.
"Do You?" I asked him "Why is that?"
"I think he wants to be with his mum and dad." Jy stood up and went over and sat on his dads lap.
"Is he scared of being in his room by himself?" I asked
"Yes" Jy nodded
"Just like Jy, huh?" Denis said.
"Yes" said Jy.

Not only has Denis still got a child who doesn't sleep through the night in his own room, but he has caused Jy to be fearful and lacking in self-esteem. But still, Denis continues to nag me about letting my son CIO.

Once when I was babysitting Jy, he fell and hurt himself. He was crying and upset. I tried to console him with a kiss and a cuddle but he pushed me away. Then he went inside and found 'bob' his special blanket and sat by himself for awhile until he felt better. Rather than turning to a person for comfort, he could only find comfort in an inanimate object- probably the only thing which comforted him during those long lonely nights of crying.

Other friends of ours who let their daughter CIO as a baby also have her come into their room and wake them up almost every night. She is 3 1/2. They have just had another daughter 2 weeks ago and from what they have told me, they plan to do the same with her. Luckily however, they respect my decision not to let TJ CIO.

These two families are the only people who I know who've let their babies CIO, and both of them have children who DON'T sleep through the night. As Dr Sears says, complex childhood problems do not have easy answers. But on speaking to them, it is almost as though they have been brainwashed into thinking that this method actually works!
Sure, short term they may eventually sleep through the night. But I beleive they are prolonging the process. I choose to attend to my baby's cries now, while I am on maternity leave and have only the one child and I beleive that once he does sleep through, he will see sleep as a happy, healthy state to enter, not one to be fearful of.
As for Jy, well, the past cannot be undone and Denis will no more submit to my parenting ideals than I will to his. All I can do is pray for him and give him the love he needs when I do get to see him.
(* I've changed their names to protect their idenities)

By Pinky on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 08:40 am:

Out of the mouths of babes!

What an insightful, sensitive little man your nephew sounds, Michelle. I wont 'judge' and we cant take children back and do it differently, but from observing CIO, and all the private emails I receive, it seems to have very short term "benefits" in many cases(of course these are all for the parents -nobody seems to ask the baby - except you, Michelle and also bear in mind that I would mostly hear about problems).

However, even tho CIO may 'work' initially, I have heard of babies who vomit and scream whenever they are taken near their beds/ bedrooms once the initial effects of stress has worn off or children becoming extremely clingy.

Personally I am convinced that there will probably be 'payback', that unmet needs will surface somewhere. I also believe strongly that if needs are met for bedtime comfort/ night time parenting (it is pretty cruel to expect a baby to adapt to different styles of responsiveness depending on whther its daylight or dark), we dont have so-called "bed time battles" as so many mainstream magazines would have us believe is all part and parcel of parenting. I often say to parents, I cant make unrealistic promises but I promise you will survive! And my own children never had night time fears/ nightmares or transitional objects. I assume this was because they didnt have any scary associatiosn with night time: I remember reading about fear of the dark as a normal childhood stage - and was a bit baffled as my then preschooler( 3rd child) would get up in the night to go to the toilet, take herself back to bed -occasionally coming into our bed but never calling out to me. Then I clicked - maybe she isnt having this 'normal' developmental stage because it isnt an issue for her. I wonder if fear of the dark is a normal developmental stage in cultures that co-sleep/ respond to infants at night?? Will investigate.

Thankyou for sharing this sad story. Its wonderful what a fabulous advocate you are for your own baby.

please can you contact me offlist.

Pinky

By Kimberley on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 12:11 pm:

Hi Michelle

that's amazing. As you've shown, it's really important to think about what our little ones are feeling, not just our own needs. Good on you for standing your ground and doing a great job with your bub. I know how hard it is to convince other people, or just to explain to other people, about a different way of doing things. At our mother's group yesterday, I was asked if Elsbeth sleeps through the night and said that she didn't. The other mums then regaled of the success they were having with their well trained bubs who 'sleep through'. I was even advised to do CC (I have tried this in the past and found it achieved what "I" wanted, but not necessarily the best thing for Elsbeth emotionally) one mum said she left her child to cry for an hour and a half and now he slept through. I think my look of disagreement said enough. I imagine the other bubs have given up trying to communicate their needs and stay quiet, even though awake and possibly frightened. We now pretty much co-sleep and feed 2-3 times during the night (although it may just be one breast so just a top up or for reassurance). This is working really well for us and I feel that Elsbeth is communicating her needs to me all the time, and gaining confidence as she realises I will listen to her. I haven't told the other mums about co-sleeping as I think it will be a bit difficult to take on board at the moment (it took me a while and I needed information to support the benefits like the article about Why love matters posted by Pinky and also by reading Pinky's books).
bye for now and know you're doing the best for your bub as I remind myself when I come across different opinions.
cheers
Kimberley

By Amy on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 02:40 pm:

I hope it's ok to just jump in here?
I'm a first time mum to a 6 month old daughter and am considered a bit of an anomoly as I co-sleep, fully breastfeed, use a sling, use cloth nappies and never leave my baby to cry. I do have a mothers group and they're great people but I do feel like a bit of a leper as they're all into routines and controlled crying. It's pretty lonely. Reading these posts makes me feel right at home.
I'm reading with interest the number of people who have 'cat nappers' My daughter is the same and rarely sleeps past an hour at a time during the day. Everyone in my mothers group says I should just leave her to cry to get her to sleep longer. The idea appalls me. Why do people try and force babies into perceived 'correct' patterns of behaviour? All babies are different. My daughter is 'high needs'-I hate that term, I prefer 'active'! but that is just who she is. Yes, it's more tiring than having a very passive baby, but life is never boring!
I've rambled enough for now.

Amy

By Michelle Fulcher on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 03:47 pm:

Hi Kimberley,
Congrats on Elsbeth sleeping so well! It sounds like everyone in your house is well rested, without having to listen to your beautiful girl cry.
I hate how people ask you the question, and then because it would be a problem for THEM they try to give you advice! I am very happy for my bub to wake up 2-3 times a night to be fed. Yes, he is 10 months old and "shouldn't" be waking up more than once, but seeing as I have been to some pretty rough places with him (waking up 10+ times a night) I feel overjoyed when he wakes up this often. Thank you for your support, it is wonderful to be able to come to such a place and receive positive comments and support about the way we parent with love.

Hi Amy,
*Hugs* Welcome. My bub is also "spirited" (nicer term then "high needs") As you might see from some of my previous posts under different headings, he is extremely active- and has been so since he was a newborn! While other newborns would lie there and look around, TJ would lie there with his legs and arms moving like crazy...It was quite funny to watch actually- like you say, never boring. Its good to see that you have accepted that it is her personality, and not anything that you have done. It took me quite a while to come to that point also. (especially going to mothers groups, seeing the other babies fall asleep on their own in their prams, staying in one spot while they play and not having the ear-peircing scream that my darling boy possess...I definately thought we were the lepers).
I also wonder why we 'force babies into correct patterns of behavior'? You don't put a baby on the floor and say "I'm not picking you up until you teach yourself to crawl", you don't put a plate full of adult food in front of a baby and say "Your not leaving the table until you can feed yourself." But yet when it comes to sleep, this doesn't seem strange to most people- that we teach our babies most other things gradually and with love...but for some reason it is different with sleep!

Okay, okay... the queen of ramblers has said enough for now....

By pinky on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 03:55 pm:

Welcome Amy,

From a mum who also had 'active' babies, I wonder if these 'active' babies are also generally very bright little people because they have lower sleep needs, or if it is the other way around ie bright babies find the world too interesting to sleep. I believe that babies are like adults:some have higher sleep needs than others. I also think it would be helpful if there was more info about the fact that breast and formula fed babies do actually sleep differently. I almost feel that breastmilk is a bit like 'jet fuel' and perhaps this is why breastfed babies fairly typically are refreshed by whatever sleep they have - long, short or even a cat nap. I personally didnt see catnaps as a problem - even tho it does mean we need to keep ourselves pretty fit we can learn to use this time wisely and be ready to 'go' when our babies wake.


It is really sad that we are all brainwashed into believing that babies should sleep half their lives away - what a waste of all those cuddles and smiles.

Sounds to me like you are doing a fabulous job Amy.

Pinky

By AmyS on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 04:50 pm:

Thank you very much for the welcome Michelle and Pinky. It's nice to be among others with 'spirited' babies. Makes me feel less alone. Michelle, your child sounds exactly like mine. All other babies in my mums group have been 'trained' to fall asleep anywhere by themselves. Mine won't sleep anywhere than on me. One of the mums gave me 'Babywise' to read. Gary Ezzo. One of the most APPALLING books I have ever read. I read it with my mouth open in horror. What a misguided, and dangerous man. Yet most of the mums I know follow it.

Pinky, from the reading I've done it seems that the brains of 'spirited' babies are different in that they do need less sleep. Apparently too much to see and do in the world around them to bother with it! My daughter was also a water birth and my midwife (wonderful person) said that babies born under water are generally more alert and active than those born on land. I've just learned to do the thingfs I have to do around her sleep times. I figure in ten years time neither she nor I will remember whether the house was tidy or not but we will remember all the cuddles together.

By pinky on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 05:12 pm:

" I figure in ten years time neither she nor I will remember whether the house was tidy or not but we will remember all the cuddles together."

Interestingly, Amy, just the other day I was sitting chatting with my daughter and her husband. This young man was discussing with sadness, "whenever we were going to do anything, my mother used to say, 'dont make a mess', so we didnt do anything. Larissa imediately chuckled and said, "I cant remember our mum ever saying THAT"

While Larissa has often suggested that a bit of obsessive compulsive wouldnt go astray around here, it was an eye opener for her to hear.

She then got out the photo albums of her mudwrestling with a big brother, playing dressups and making cubbies - all 'messy' but lots of fun and happy memories.

I say - enjoy your spirited babies and children -create lots of happy memories. They will grow up to be interesting adults and you will have lots of family folk lore about all their adventures!
Pinky

By Kimberley on Saturday, April 2, 2005 - 08:08 pm:

Hi Michelle
yes, you're right, other people tend to offer advice based on what bothers THEM. I'm glad things have settled down for you. I have to agree that the support here is just amazing and keeps me going sometimes when I don't think I can voice my thoughts so freely to others. Through this site, I have learnt to follow my instincts, knowing it is the best way to parent for my bub.
(I have to say I'm a bit guilty of rambling at times too)
Hi Amy
a big welcome, yes my bub also sleeps for only 40 minutes at a time during the day and wakes raring to go again. Like Pinky says, I have learnt to do things very quickly when the chance arises. Hope you enjoy the site.
Hi Pinky
it's encouraging to hear that they grow up one day and remember all the good things about their childhood. I hope Elsbeth will have lots of great memories.
cheers
Kimberley

By Nicky on Friday, April 22, 2005 - 07:23 pm:

Hi everyone. I am so thankful I followed a link to this page when serarching for alternatives to controlled crying! I have a 7 month old boy who can't put himself to sleep. He also doesn't sleep in the pram or car(tho the latter seems to be changing recently). We have to settle him to sleep or he sometimes falls asleep at the breast - considered a bonus for me! He still wakes for feeds during the night, tho in the last week this has reduced to only once!!!! Sometimes it may take an hour to get back to sleep tho. Reading thru your situations and comments has confirmed that control crying is not for me as it goes against my instincts. It is nice to hear a continual reasurrance of "go with your instincts - it's OK". I've had a good look at my parenting ideals and although we didn't co-sleep, mostly as I couldn't get comfortable and I slept so lightly in fear of my deep sleeping husband rolling on him, my huband & I seem to side with the attachment parenting attitudes. After reading this and related articles I feel comfortable that we don't have that great a problem with my boy's sleep. And if he is baby-sat(something I've avoided)then we will accept that if they miss his subtle tired signs and they can't/won't settle him to sleep then although he will be bugged-eyed, at least he will be happy being cuddled and played with, and we just won't stay out as late. Thanks again. I'll definitely be revisiting this page.
Nicky

By Kimberley on Friday, April 22, 2005 - 11:04 pm:

Hi Nicky
welcome to Pinky's site, hope you enjoy it. I try to keep in mind that sleeping through is not a developmental milestone. I guess it's a matter of time before that happens, but I don't sleep through myself yet!! I think eventually they just learn to go back to sleep after waking when they are old enough to know that everything's ok. Good on you for going with your instincts, if it makes bub happy and content, how can it be wrong?
cheers
Kimberley

By Michelle Fulcher on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 09:15 am:

Hi Nicky,
welcome! I'm like you in that although I consider myself an 'attached' parent, I just can't sleep with my baby in the same bed. None of us sleep well. The other night he was very unsettled so I brought him into my bed so that I could at least lie down, and he actually pushed me away from him!
I'm totally jealous by the way- My 10 month old has never woken less than twice a night to feed!
Oh well, he will one day I suppose....I'm hangin' in there.
It's great to find another mother who is attentive to her babies needs- I sort of feel like every mother that discovers attachment parenting makes the world a better place!
Toodles
Michelle

By rebeccab on Friday, May 6, 2005 - 11:06 am:

Hi everyone,
It has been a while since I posted but have been keeping up to date with everyone's progress, and challenges. And Michelle, I have been seeing your bits and pieces on the ncss pages too!! You are an organised woman (ps great photos of taliver).
Anyway my update - am now 33 weeks pregnant and have been plodding with the ncss and various other slowly slowly aproaches to help nicholas, the wonderboy to sleep better and longer and in his room since november, including pinky's great toddler workshop (nicholas is now 17 months old.

Well, in the last 2 weeks we have had 3 complete sleep throughs (about 7pm to about 6am) and most nights he is waking once only till the morning when he comes in for a cuddle +/- extra snooze.

So what happened? well nothing really. I think i was a bit half assed with implementing the ncss, but embraced the concepts, i relaxed a bit, wonderboy finally got all his molars in less than a week (ooh, they must hurt, gee they are big!)and we moved him onto a single mattress on the floor. I think the bed thing is probably the single biggest factor, he seemed to feel a bit incarcerated by the cot and now we do our same routine as ever and mum or dad turns off the light and we have a cuddle until he is somewhere between calm and fast asleep (depending on whether we fall asleep too!) and then off we go to be grownups for the evening. if he gets up, he walks out and we say 'back to bed' and he turns around and walks back to bed, holding our hands in his sleepy boy way and snuggles back under his blankets. he seems happier and we certainly are, if only i could retrain myself to not lay awake listening, i am sure i'd get even more sleep.

the bed thing, for those of you wondering why we introduced it so early (15 months) was driven by a recognition of the climbing nature of this child and the fact that he would be capable of climbing out of the cot by the time new baby comes, by which time it would be too disruptive to introduce more change. and right we were - yesterday I returned to the lounge room after a quick wee while wonderboy was very busy with his trucks to find him walking along our dining room table with his hands above his head, giving himself a round of applause and saying 'yay, yay, toot, toot'. hmmmm, the adventurer within.

anyway, just wanted to let you know that I am still sane, and stayed mostly sane up until now and just kept on loving him and now we have more energy for so much more, just in time for sleep deprivation with a newborn. YAY!!!


ps does anyone have a recipe for playdoh that has less than a cup af salt. i am told they like to eat it, and the salt isn't great for their kidneys. (see, I am so full of beans I made playdoh yesterday).

best wishes, and happy parenting,
becc

By Kimberley on Friday, May 6, 2005 - 11:41 am:

Hi Rebecca
it's good to hear that you're having sleep through's and that Nicholas knows he can get up if need be or can go back to sleep also because you're not far away. I think we'll probably introduce a single bed early as I figure it's a good way to get Elsbeth to sleep by laying down with her and reading a story together. I'll have to look into the ncss.
cheers Kimberley

By pinky on Friday, May 6, 2005 - 12:23 pm:

We had a couple of early climbers too- much safer to be out of a cot if they can climb out. I am sure these mobile tots bump themselves awake in cots too.

The visual of Nicholas walking along the table is wonderful!! How divine that he saw it as an achievement! (even if it scares you witless)

All sleep stories welcome - you can send these offline directly to me if you have any comments-I am writing a sleep book to be published next year -have been approved to sit my lactation consultant's exam in July (lots of prerequisites) so its all go!

best wishes,
Pinky

By rebeccab on Friday, May 6, 2005 - 12:37 pm:

thanks Kimberley,
I do think it is a real reassurance thing for him. He pops his little head out and knows we are near. I keep coming back to thinking about children who learn their needs will be met come to trust and become more independent (rather than 'spoilt') and a few months of consistent gentle and flexible routine has helped all 3 of us to figure out a few things. My husband tells me that for every minute past 7.30 that wonderboy has lights out is 10 more minutes to settle him. I never noticed, but he is right. and if it is after 8 then you can be pretty sure he will want to party at 5 am. I feel so empowered because we didn't blindly follow a set routine, we did most of the same things most of the time and nicholas loves reading and then a cuddle and then pulls away to lie down. he's ready.
I agree that the single bed is a great way to do stories. Sometimes we lean against the wall and read and sometimes we all lay down but I find that even if my parents are watching him and we are out, stories continue and he'll let you know when he is ready to go to sleep. it is a calm and effective way to wind him down.
I thought we would have rushed out for the single bed by now, but we are all happy with the mattress on the floor and in no hurry for the bed. it is safe and comfy and easy to make a quick getaway.
I am so happy. I feel really blessed and am falling in love with my family all over again, and that includes me - I feel so good about myself and my ability to listen and parent by heart (good book cover quote for you pinky!!).
becc

By rebeccab on Friday, May 6, 2005 - 12:40 pm:

pinky, you slipped that post in while i was writing mine,
yes the table incident. very hard to respond without screaming 'oh my god, get down!!!!!!!"

I said 'oh, hello. be nice and safe. sit on your bottom, it's time to get down' and we went to do some drawing. Aren't I good?

becc

By Kimberley on Friday, May 6, 2005 - 01:24 pm:

Hi Becc
that's wonderful that you feel so confident and happy with your parenting style. I'm still in the early stage of parenting (Elsbeth's 8 months old) and still coming across different opinions in the mainstream. I think my friends think I'm spoiling Elsbeth sometimes by not leaving her if she wants me. I too feel very happy that I'm parenting in a responsive way but in front of others I don't yet have the skills to ward off negative responses. Hopefully the proof will be in the pudding as they see Elsbeth develop into a confident, happy child (although she already is most of the time now). Thanks again Pinky for your encouragement to 'parent by heart'! Becc I wanted to ask you, do you have a cot size mattress on the floor or a single bed size?
I posted my letters re CC recently and am awaiting a response. I ended up sending a separate one to the worker about her comments as didn't want to get her in trouble with her boss.
Pinky, congratulations on your hard work, I hope you pass your lactation consultants exam.
cheers Kimberley

By rebeccab on Friday, May 6, 2005 - 04:30 pm:

Kimberley,
I have a single bed mattress. I did toy with the idea of the cot mattress but I was babysitting a spare single bed of my mums and so the single mattress was just there to be had. And I got so excited and rushed out to buy linen and things that I couldn't help myself. I leaned a few pillows along the side the first few nights as a variation on a bumper/ cot rail but found I didn't really need to. he has a teddy against the wall that he snuggles his back into. He DOES look very small in the big bed but he is a tall boy so will fill it very quickly. another point to think about, we have just a regular single mattress at the moment cos it's a 'mattress of convenience' but I bought king single linen and double blankets and we will get a king single bed when we do buy the bed, just a bit more room for tall children, as they all seem to be now.
I have gained bit by bit with confidence with outsiders (including family). But self-belief at home is enough for a start. lots of people thought i was bonkers for a long time, part time co-sleeping, no intentions of weaning according to other's perceptions (I did wean ahead of my original plan due to pregnancy, ivf etc, plan to continue longer with this baby. will not allow myself to feel guilty, I did what I thought was best for myself, nicholas and potential babies), attatched parenting, a child who didn't sleep through and refusal to CC ('why don't you just do it, it'll be over in a week?' argghhhh), food sensitivity observations for a bit of excema, organic food. It sent some people into a tizz of unsolicited advice giving but I just kept making sure my husband and I were communicating and that he understood my need for support from him and my need for him to sometimes express that support to my loudmouthed family and others. he just said quietly whenever i shot him 'the look' "well, we are just doing what works for us. we are all learning about each other and working it out" LOVE HIM. he said it over and over. i think he thought i was a bit daft sometimes but he never allowed others to make me feel that way. So we are going to have 20 kids cos I think I had better take advantage of how great he is!
gotta run for playdoh time.
becc

By pinky on Friday, May 6, 2005 - 04:42 pm:

Hey Bec - a gold star for the table response =- no panic and "create a diversion" works really well if you can contain yourself - so often the first time your child is doing something wild it can be a shriek of "oh my gosh!" You did really well!

You have a fantastic hubby - you are obviously a great communicator to elicit such fabulous support and maintain it.

Pinky

By Michelle on Friday, May 6, 2005 - 04:42 pm:

becc,
Organised?! Me? HA.

Congrats on the pregnancy, and on getting Nicholas into a lovely routine! Three cheers for Nicholas!
Its always good to see a wonderful Mummy bringing more bubs into the world- Another good guy to add to the team.

I'm totally with you on the bedtime story thing- Taliver is only 11 months old, and although he doesn't know how to point or wave, he can turn the pages of his picture books (Not board books, paper books!). He loves reading and prefers books over his toys which is just wonderful. I have always been a big reader and used to enjoy laying on my mums bed spending quality time with her, each of us reading our own novels, stopping to chat now and then. I can't wait to do this with Taliver when he is older.

The other thing I see similarities with is the early bedtime. Taliver has a bath at 6.30pm and is asleep by 7pm most nights. If he is tired he will decide that its bathtime and go and sit outside the bathroom door, some nights as early as 5.30. Adorable!

Re: the cot, I'm lucky in that I got a convertable cot (they have convertible everything these days!) so as soon as he starts climbing, I can take the side of the cot and replace it with a rail. Though I might be too worried about him falling and just use the mattress too, we'll see what happens I suppose.

Its really good also to hear about your early discipline style. I think about discipline alot and sometimes worry that I won't be able to keep my cool in situations such as the one you described. But I think the more I expose myself to people who discipline in this gentle way the more it will come naturally to me. Thanks for keeping us updated!
Toodles
Michelle

By rebeccab on Friday, May 6, 2005 - 08:03 pm:

michelle,
the discipline stuff is something I give a lot of thought to. I am the only child of a 17 year old single mum and was raised in a pretty permissive environment with lots of sensible adult company, and while I am told I wasn't much of an suue with 'naughtiness' I didn't really have age appropriate limits set for me. I would sit up and drink milo while mum and her friends drank coffee and chatted so I never really knew what I would do about the discipline of a child, and a boy at that. my husband was raised by 'stay at the table till you are finished, a good smack never hurt' sincere people so he wasn't much help in the planning stages either. He thought that a smack on the hand would not be a problem and saying no would be enough to keep wonderboy from pulling out the dvd's from the cabinet.
How we learn!! I agree with Pinky's post today, in the breastfeeding bit i think,about instinct actually being a database of collated information. I have read and read and read and as a mother of a 2 month old baby thought I would burst trying to follow everything to the letter. but with a bit of time, and I guess age brings a little wisdom even if it is only another year, I am much better at filtering and working out what suits my 'instinct' what seems like it fits with how I want to view my parenting.
Most helpful was a couple of lots of handouts at pinky's toddler workshop (if you get a chance, go to this when pinky does it again. don't wait till your babies are 2 and you are a bit puzzled and wanting problem solving, go when they are a little over one and you are preparing and thinking). I really liked stuff about understanding impulse control (zip in this department till about 3 or 4) so he knows he can't touch the dvd's but can't help it; and stuff about practicing saying NO in positive ways. I am rambling but i feel really comfortable about redirecting his focus and encouraging his strengths (I wish climbing wasn't one!) and keeping him safe. It is better that he is a competent climber than freaking out and stopping him everytime he tries. So we go to the park and he climbs and sometimes falls but he is learning everyday. He sure seems to chuck nice tanties too, don't think we are immune cos I am all placenta-y and serene!! but I can cope withthat too and he is usually frustrated about something so we have a hug and think about what it is all about - often hunger or annoyance about not being outside because it is raining. 5 minutes of devoted time usually diverts it off into another direction. we are learning, all of us. skill building and developing as people. I am trying to enjoy the ride. today is a good day, i'll take it as it comes and embrace it. tomorrow might be more challenging so i'd better store up some serenity!!!
xxx becc

By Kimberley on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 05:33 pm:

Hi everyone
hope you all had a lovely mother's day and were spoilt silly. I got glammed up in a dress and heels and was taken out for lunch (unfortunately mil invited herself, but that's another story).
It sounds like you're doing a great job Becc with your parenting style and your hubby does sound wonderful, but you wouldn't have married him if he wasn't right?
I wanted to ask Pinky and others about co-sleeping as I'm finding that Elsbeth won't sleep during the day unless I'm with her and has been stirring if I try to get up. I don't mind too much but am finding it difficult to get other things done during the day. I just wondered if there was a magic age that they become less in need of total attention, if that's what they're used to. I'm also worried about her safety and don't leave her in the big bed (she still won't go in the cot). Any advice apprecitated.
cheers Kimberley

By Amys on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 09:04 am:

Sorry I have no advice, but Molly's exactly the same. At night once she's asleep I can roll away and leave her for an hour or so before she needs 'milkies' again (I took the side off the cot and pushed it against my bed so she can;t roll off. Also creates more space . I put mounds of pillows on the other side of her. She's not a roller-yet), but during the day she has to sleep ON me.
I usually don't mind. It's nice to know I'm such a comfort, but it means I never get to spend time with my husband, which I'd really like to do! I wouldn't want to leave her all the time, maybe just one sleep time during the day (she has 4).

Will be interested to see the advice you get.

Amy

By Kimberley on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 11:01 am:

Hi Amy
thanks for the feedback. I feel for my hubby as he doesn't have much room in the bed with the 3 of us in there. I tried putting Elsbeth in the cot again last night, but she woke and wanted mummy. I think I'll try the sidecar like you and see if she'll stay that way, with my hand on her.
cheers Kimberley

By Nicky on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 01:18 pm:

Pinky / Girls I need some HELP! I don't know how to get my nearly 8 month old darling boy to sleep during the day.

He used to settle with our help relatively quickly (15 min) but we thought he was old enough to start trying to help him fall asleep by himself without one of us being present. We thought rather than CC we'd do our own version of 'controlled cumforting' i.e. let him play (just with his dummies,x3) until he starts cranking up with the "i'm not crying yet - but where are you!" so one of us would go in for a few minutes or longer, roll him on his side, tuck him back in, place a hand on his shoulder etc, trying to be minimal. He'd quieten down so I'd go out side again and potter. Often he would be fine for 10-15 min before cranking up again. This would continue for up to an hour when I'd decide that it was REALLY time for him to go to sleep. The only way to do this at this stage (as all he wants to do is play, even though he is SO tired - yawning & eye rubbing) is by hold his arms/hands still and covering his eyes with our hand (leaving couple cm gap over his eyes), thus totally shutting out all stimulation and he would pop off to sleep. I do have a few issues with this 'restraint' but it didn't seem to worry him and worked. I should say that occasionally he would suceed in self settling, but wake up after 45 min upset and impossible to resettle.

NOW, he does the above but has added crying when I try to settle him onto his side and just holding his shoulders and hip! Isn't this what I'm s'posed to be avoiding! Sometimes I can calm him by long strokes down his body and sometimes he just gets himself in such a state that I have to feed him again just to calm him, and he'd feed to sleep. Sometimes that doesn't even work and I'd just have to get him up and abort that nap. But that isn't solving anything either as he is still overtired. Sometimes even trying to settle him as soon as I put him into his cot, after a breast feed in the dark, isn't working as he wants to play! He protests and goes straight into crying when I roll him on his side.

I know he is at the age where he can actively refuse to sleep, regardless of how tired he is. Problem is he is such an alert highly stimulated boy. He sees and feels (emothionally) everthing around hime. Rarely will he fall asleep in the car or pram. I can feel myself getting frustrated at him which I hate as I know he isn't trying to upset me. I know i'm tired and that doesn't help (still getting up at least twice/night to feed and I wake up to his restless-but-still-asleep cryes - that is with ear plugs and two doors closed!) I feel his overtiredness is becoming cumilative as he has reduced his apetite for solids and seems too tired to eat much - starts rubbing food into his eyes.

I don't know what to do. Friends would say once he's crawling he'll sleep better - well he is very mobile with camando crawing and won't be far off the real thing. Yes it makes him tired but not sleepy. When i go into his nursery to try and settle him he often is on all 4's.

Am I over reacting just cause I'm not used to him crying and I'm tired. He has always been a lovely content baby. Will he eventually learn to put himself to sleep during the day? (Night time he'll often feed to sleep or go thu the above , but often my husband is there to help settle him, so it isn't as stressfull!)He has another 5-6 months before he goes into a couple of days childcare when I go back to work - what do I do if he still won't get himself to sleep then! I know that is thinking way too far ahead.

Neurotic....?!?
Nicky

By Kimberley on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 04:19 pm:

Hi Nicky
hang in there. Is it possible that your boy's teething as Elsbeth went off her solids for a few weeks before her first tooth, plus she was pretty crotchety. As you know, Elsbeth is not sleeping much on her own at the moment and I think it's just the developmental stage she's at (8.5 months). I know Michelle said that Taliver has started self settling around 11 months old I think. Elsbeth sleeps for around 45 minutes too during the day with the occasional longer nap in the early afternoon. Maybe Pinky or the others have some other ideas, but know that you're heart's in the right place. Cheers Kimberley

By pinky on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 09:09 pm:

You say "Problem is he is such an alert highly stimulated boy. He sees and feels (emothionally) everthing around him."

Nicky - this could be your clue. There is so much going on developmentally and life is soo exciting for an alert baby as they become mobile (think mobility/ teeth/ new foods/ separation anxiety/ understanding that things happen in sequence) that your bub will need help to 'switch off'. Rather than have a meltdown (for you both) then "reward' him with a feed - why not simply feed him to sleep for now (if he will do this), (breastmilk is full of lovely sleep inducing hormones and with a full tummy he will sleep lomger)then in a couple of weeks (after at least a week of him happily going to sleep at the breast), try breastfeeding til he is almost asleep, then gently place him in his cot. Take it in baby steps, just a little at a time.

Do you have any bedtime music? You could also try 'Music for dreaming'as you feed him to sleep, then as you gradually wean him from feeding as a sleep cue, keep playing the music - ie switch cues. Later you can simply lower the volume of the music.

Keep bedtimes quiet and low stimulation - take time to wind down a bit beforehand, rather than excited physical play. TV off!!!

There is a lot of flack about letting babies go to sleep at the breast - he may still love to snuggle up to a boob when hes 18 - but it wont be yours! So dont even worry about 'bad habits' - just get your rest, let him get some sleep and when he gets through this intense stage, it will all settle with very little effort.

Re food - it could be teething or just that he has so many new things happening that he isnt interested in all of them at once. dont worry, babies dont starve themselves -if you are worried about health ( sore throat/ ears etc), always get your baby checked out - dont worry about being branded an axious mum -Drs have to pay their kids school fees too!


good luck,
Pinky

By AmyS on Friday, May 13, 2005 - 11:02 am:

Yep, sounds like you have a 'high needs' babe there Molly is the same. Overstimulated very easily. The only solution to her sleep issues I've found is to just let her play. If she simply will NOT sleep, I just let her play some more, either on me, the bed or the floor. Then pick her up aain and attempt to feed her to sleep. I just keep repeating this and eventually she does go to sleep. I know it's frustrating when you know how tired they are, but this too shall pass
(I got the 'once she;s crawling she'll sleep better' advice too. Afraid it's a load of rubbish. For Molly anyway!)

Amy

By nicky on Friday, May 13, 2005 - 12:18 pm:

Thanks for you comments. I was having a really depressed day yesterday and don't have much in the way of family support to help me out of the rut. (What family support I do have are followers of CC, which only increases my anxiety!) I'm ususally not so anxious as I was yesterday. I have taken the time to read properly the previous postings and I do realise I am oh so not alone! You lot just copped it for an my offloading. So thanks again for being supportive. I know you have all been there too!

Pinky, I hear what you are saying. This is such an intense time emothionally/mentally/physically with the developmental changes that seem exponetial. I forget what a big thing it is for Wil to purposefully move away out of my line of sight to explore. I need to remind myself how lucky I am that I do have a little darling that is interested in his surroundings.

We already have in place a lot of the bed time stuff eg, Wil preferrs to feed when he is tired (too distracted when he wakes up!) and it's always with the lights off/blinds closed just before bed, there is Mozart playing continually in the background softly and there is no TV until Wil goes to bed at nightime (I don't know how people have time to watch TV during the day!?!) But there is always room for improvement and we will think what we can do for more wind down. I hadn't thought of taking him off the breast just before he goes to sleep (as he sometimes does during the day)and after reading the posts above, the stories just before bed sounds like a good thing. It's a shame I'm not in the locality to do your workshops as the feedback sounds good.

Kimberley, Ta. It is reasuring to hear that Taliver self settled at 11 months.

Amy, I don't know why I am so fixated on WIl's sleep - or lack of it during the day! (I live with what is thrown at me during the night as I always remember when it was much worse, so 2-3 times is fine.)I need to take a page from your book and chill out. At least playing in the cot in a dark room is 'quiet time' with minimal stimuli.

Becc, I wanted to ask what ncss is? - and WOW, I'm so impressed about your calm response to the dining table incident! Also impressed with your hubbies std response to ward off the negative and obrusive comments. We will take that up too I feel.

Anyway, rambling again. Cheers Nicky

By pinky on Friday, May 13, 2005 - 05:32 pm:

Hugs Nicky- so much ofwhat I see and hear re sleep issues is because others have gotten into mothers' heads when they feel vulnerable - criticism always seems to result in self doubt and it is very hard to swim against the tide, esp if you are surrounded by CC people.

Sounds like you have been doing lots of lovely stuff all along - so give yourself a big pat on the back for being a caring responsive mummy.

Have you ever tried massage? Its a bit tricky once babies become mobile but I have seen some really great results with babies becoming nicely relaxed after a massge -on mum told me her baby (about 5 months at the time) would sleep an extra hour if she massaged him before his middle of the day sleep - he was bottle fed (just thought Id mention that as people usually think only breastfed bubs dont sleep long)and without a massage would only sleep 30 -45 minutes.

Somtimes these bigger bubs will sleep quite well after a morning out which helps them use up some of that energy - ie a walk/ swim/ GymbaROO/ kindermusik etc etc - Im not for a moment suggesting anybody should start a hectic schedule - just that one day a week might be interesting to observe -a walk is lovely and stressfree at any time. Of course crawling around uses energy but doesnt always mean a baby will sleep (as Amy says).One of mine gave up all day sleeps at 6 months - he was crawling - not high need, just high energy. he was the happiest baby - just didnt need any more than 8 hours sleep in any 24 hr period -I nearly went demented keeping up with him. I used to pull the curtains, snuggle in bed and breastfeed him - thinking he would snooze - ten minutes later he had had enough booby and would lurch towards the floor - refuelled and energised. We used to joke that he ran on mummys jet fuel. Hes a high energy guy and thats great now - just hell when they are babies and we want a bit of rest - his 2 year old brother was still having a nap!

Im really interested in some comments re sleep for my next book - there is a thread here if anyone wants to add to it -any comments at all that you want to share re sleep are welcome - you can send these off line if you like, so at least they wont already be all over the 'net' before its published.

Hang in there Nicky

Pinky

By Michelle on Friday, May 13, 2005 - 06:54 pm:

Nicky,
Another thing that really helped us encourage Taliver to settle himself was reading the same book to Taliver before he went down for naps and night-time sleep. Our book is "Where is the green sheep"(Mem Fox) and now, as soon as I start reading it (in his darkened room, with music and special "blankie") he starts rubbing his eyes and yawning, even if he wasn't showing tired signs before (but I knew he was tired). It was also was REALLY helpful when Taliver started WANTING to fall asleep on his own in the cot (pushing me away when I would try to rock him or put a nipple in his mouth). It was like he didn't know what he wanted- he wanted to know I was there, but he didn't want me physically touching him (I think I kept him awake by trying to stroke or pat him in the cot sometimes) so I would just recite "Where is the green sheep" over and over and over again. Usually he would quieten and lie down with his blankie straight away and it didn't take long before he was asleep. Then later, I would just recite it once as I was leaving, and now sometimes he cries if I stay and read to him ("just give me some peace mummy!" is what his cry sounds like to me).

So perhaps if you add a book to his routine (one that is lyrical and soothing), later on it will be helpful?

Pinky, your high energy baby sounds a bit like Taliver (although Taliver sleeps quite a bit more by the sounds of it...thankfully!) "Not high need, just high energy." Taliver is also a very happy baby. But when he is awake it is just GO GO GO!!!!

By rebeccab on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 09:09 pm:

Hi nicky,
thanks for your compliments. as you can see, we all have our struggles and triumphs here so you can feel very at home.
The ncss is the No-cry Sleep Solution, a book by an american author, Elizabeth Pantley. For us, it broke the cycle of feeling pretty hopeless about sleep and the lack of it. Lots of interesting thoughts, probably worth a read, but use your own judgement about what feels right rather than undermining yourself further by thinking you need to adopt a strict plan because everything you are doing is wrong. Sounds like you are doing a great job and I felt like it was me talking when I read 'I'm not used to him crying and I'm tired'. Nicholas is not a crier either. it is very hard to hear. Hope the last few days have been better for you and you feel a lttle more topped up to enter a new week. Stay in touch,
Becc
ps we have had 2 totally crap night's sleep. Last night, Nicholas was awake from 0230 till 0530! We each did 1.5 hrs at trying to get him back to sleep, and have been snitchy all day. Nicholas was completely happy, didn't want to get out of bed, just wanted to play 'Dooo' (his version of Booo) with his bunny over our eyes. Hilarious in the daytime, very unfunny with big pregnant belly, reflux and a clock in the early am. hoping for a better night tonight.

Sweet dreams to you all. b

By kathysharp on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 09:07 am:

Dear All,

Sorry if I am repeating previous problems and asking for repetition of advice, I didn't have time to read all the emails of this forum! (Sound familiar?) My daughter is now 12 months old and can't seem to stay asleep at night. She actually did sleep very well from 6 weeks - 7pm to 4 or 5 am, (and we felt like the luckiest, and maybe just a little smug, parents on the planet)until she started teething at 6 months. She also started sitting up and crawling at that time and was started on some limited solids - rice cereal, apple, etc. She has been waking every 2 1/2 to 3 hours and wanting to be breastfed, she wakes crying and I pick her up fairly promptly (within a couple of minutes), I try to comfort her by holding her, but she just turns herself in my arms to the BF position! She'll pat firmly, then pull, then scratch if she doesn't get fed promptly. She takes a good feed usually, then I put her back in her cot (in our room) and she falls asleep almost immediately without a whimper. At night she falls asleep by herself after our nighttime routine of dinner, bath, read and boobie; talking to herself in her cot until she's asleep. Also she has 2 naps (usually) during the day and again she puts herself to sleep after a BF. My husband and I are exhausted. We've tried co-sleeping, but she is such a restless bed hog and we end up with her head in ribs and feet in the throat etc. I think I am getting enough essential fatty acids as there are some in the Blackmore's BF formula, I eat fish and sardines during the week and she gets a little fish during the week also. I think the only salicylate containing food she eats is pureed apples and tiny amounts of tomato in prepared food. She has been walking since 9 months and is a very cheerful, independent and busy girl. She's eating more solids with her hands now and takes boobie 4-5 times during the day with her 3 meals and 2 snacks! She seems to be constantly teething though and an occasional rash behind her knees, around her ankles and under her chin. We don't believe in controlled crying/comforting and we are reluctantly considering formula at night to see if she'll sleep through. Are we misguided? I don't feel good about it. But my husband is at his wits end, and he works very long, hard hours and needs sleep without going to another room. Enough info already? Suggestions, comments, help, encouragement?
KMS

By Kimberley on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 11:00 pm:

Hi Kathy
I'm not sure exactly what to expect of a 12 month old as we're not up to that yet, but my understanding is that it can be pretty normal for a 12 month old to wake at night. Maybe if she had a snack close to bed time, like a small tub of yoghurt or stick of cheese or bicky for instance, she may sleep longer before needing a BF. (although I think dairy may cause some skin allergies as Elsbeth has a mild eczema in the folds of her neck under her chin and behind her ears at times - and she enjoys her yoghurt) Do you do a late top-up feed when you go to bed, as this can also extend the time until the next feed? I'm not sure if formula would solve the night waking as your daughter can get a full tummy on other foods now she is 12 months old.
Maybe your daughter is waking as part of her normal sleep cycle and might benefit from reassurance and a cuddle, but you say she's taking a full feed so perhaps she is hungry, or maybe it's the sucking that comforts her and puts her back to sleep. Your hubby seems like a light sleeper, my hubby didn't even wake in the early days when Elsbeth would scream the house down while waiting for the let-down. It wasn't much help then when he wouldn't wake, but it works well now as he tends to sleep 'through' most things.
Hope this is of some help and good luck with it. Pinky and the others might have some other suggestions for you. Cheers Kimberley

By Nicky on Thursday, May 19, 2005 - 12:13 pm:

Hi Kathy
Sounds exhausting - especially when you are not used to it. (But you don't ever get used to it!)
I too am not sure what is expected of a 12 month old (Wil is only 8 months) but I know friends whose little girl started waking out on a regular basis, after months of sleeping thru, and they discovered that if the husband got up to her and gave her a quick cuddle, sometimes a little drink of water, that she went back to sleep again promptly and started waking less. (No smell milk - no respond to milk). This doesn't help in your situation of your exhausted husband tho. I can sympathise as my husband works long days as well. Although my husband can sleep thru Wil's wakings most of the time (Wil isn't in our room)it does still knock him out of deep sleep and even tho he technically gets 6-7 hours asleep it is still disturbed and he is still constantly tired. Hope Pinky has some possible solutions for you. Good Luck.


Meanwhile, we have taken on board the multiple suggestions and dramatically adjusted our pre nap/sleep routines. We especially liked the idea of the same book read prior each sleep - problem is we both have our favourite books and can't agree! We may end up having to buy Mem's Green Sheep.

As for parenting books, I think it would be advantageous for me to have one on hand that is more supportive to my ideals. So far I've used "Baby Love" by Robin Barker and "Mother & Child" by Penelope Leach. Both have been very helpful and informative, with Penelope having the gentler attitude, but I think something supportive of the attached parenting style would help prevent the, as You put it Pinky "gotten into mothers' heads when they feel vulnerable" and yes, it is very hard to swim against the tide. I am currently looking at various reviews of parenting books from Pinky, Elizabeth Pantley, Harvey Karp and the Sears, but as I have an older baby I don't want something that is focussed on newborns. (I think the NCSS is on the list tho!)

Also Pinky, any ideas on how to massage a wriggly eel!

Cheers NIcky

By Pinky on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 08:49 pm:

Hi Ladies, sorry I have been out of action - sick for a couple of weeks- getting back gradually. Kathy, your diet sounds great. You mention your baby has rashes - could this be exzema? If her rashes are allergy based, you might find it helpful to try avoiding all dairy - milk, cheese yoghurt (sorry to spell it out as you seem really intelligent, but others reading this might not necessarily realise you need to take out ALL dairy) - you would need to do this for around 2 weeks to really be sure - read labels carefully as milk products are hidden in lots of foods. If her rashes are allergy based, formula would not be a good idea. It might pay to get the rashes checked by a GP for diagnosis - not all will agree tho that exzema is allergy based.

Could your baby be sensitive to laundry products? Toiletries ie soaps? We know that even a small rash can itch and wake us so this may be a culprit with your baby. For some lovely natural products - see www.aromababy.com and ask for samples so you can test products before spending bucks.

I know its so hard to keep the whole family happy and rested - sorry if this sounds a little bit unsympathetic but teething can be tough on little ones and at least there will be an end - there is a finite number of teeth. And really, if a little breastfeed settles her,it is probably easiest to simply do this - trust your baby - she isnt waking deliberately to annoy you. Are you able to get some extra rest during the day so you can do the night time parenting and let hubby get his rest? Often having an afternoon nap a few days a week can help your sanity enormously and just get you through this sticky stage. I think we do have lots of pressure around sleep expectations - separation anxiety is really strong for most bubs at 12 months, she is already walking so must be a busy little bee with a very active mind - and will be processing all her new experiences as she sleeps.


Pinky

By Michelle on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 10:36 am:

Hi Pinky, sorry to hear you've been sick...glad to see your on the path to recovery though!!

By Kimberley on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 03:47 pm:

Likewise Pinky, hope you're feeling better.

By pinky on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 11:38 pm:

Thanks girls- actually I feel quite out of control not having my usual energy, but rest will get me back on track - Im trying my best to 'surrender" - there has to be a lesson here . I had a lovely massage at the weekend and I highly recommend some nurturing for all mums!!

Pinky

By Michelle on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 04:10 pm:

mmmm....massage
I'm going to the osteopath tommorow, and he gives a GREAT massage....YAY!

By Jane D on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 04:02 am:

Hello everyone...yes it's been a long time since I wrote in this space (March 2005) but there isn't a week that goes by without me thinking "oh, I must get back on the website" and at 4am, I am reading up on your dilemas and advice that I've missed out on. And the verdict? What an awesome network this is!!!
Well my Abe - 10months now, has been to the daystay and even a week at Riverton (Brissy) to try to establish a sleep pattern....and to no avail. During the week at Riverton, he ate, slept, gooed and gaaed at the right times and for the right amount of time. And did he continue this once we came home, you ask? Well yes.....for one night! Auggghhhh!!!!!
Anyway...some days I resign myself to thinking it's just the way he is...other days I'm ready to throw the towel in and walk away from Abe and my other three children. Isn't parenting a roller coaster?
I have cut back on work, to devote myself to establishing a routine for Abe...but that hasn't seemed to work either (so of course I'm feeling guilt at not working as much too)
I might just duck into the local bookstore and go through their shelves one more time, in search for the title "A dummies guide to understanding Abe..." - if I could just locate the text, I'm SURE everything would fall into place.
Until next time, keep the support network thriving

Jane

By Amanda on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 07:28 pm:

Hi All! Glad to hear Pinky you’re on the mend.
Kathy when we started out cosleeping from bedtime, I found it really difficult because Jesse was a thrasher and we were all contending for space. Now it’s much more peaceful. Could your daughter be going through another growth spurt and so needs to wake more frequently in order to consume the extra milk? As Kimberley suggests perhaps try a before bedtime snack although personally I find I don’t sleep well and even have nightmares as a result of the rise in sugar levels. Jesse is only just over 9mths so I don’t have any experience with 12mth olds either but I considered using formula as a means of helping Jesse sleep longer. I got some on the weekend actually. I tasted it first and it was fine and he didn’t mind it but wasn’t all that fussed so didn’t take much at all. I put it in his sipper. My mother believes it isn’t necessary and suggested just trying organic goats milk instead. That could be an option for you as in try cow goat, rice or almond (not sure about the nut allergy on that one though) instead of the formula first (if you haven’t already). But as Pinky also points out if she’s suffering from a dairy allergy best to stay away for the time being. From what I understand some babies respond to the extra food and others don’t. I think you need to do what you are comfortable with so if you want to give the formula try you should. Although Id be cautious about which one to try is all. Perhaps Pinky can suggest some good ones. I would personally consider an organic one. I know a couple so just post back if you want the names.
On the teething side of things – Jesse has being going through allot of discomfort and pain as he’s got five teeth in close succession. So he has been unsettled ALLOT so I can definitely vote for this being a routine breaker…
Jesse has some sort dermatitis under his penis and where it lays on the scrotum. I use Calendula oil for its antiseptic properties which works really well and also use Calendula Plus Cream which is for eczema and psoriasis of the skin. They have a whole range of products which you can find on http://www.naturalhealthdirect.com.au/shop/cat127_1.htm The creator does have his own website but I cant seem to find it. If you tune into Burts or KAKs shows they often have this guy on talking about his products and quote his website.
The other consideration is an excellent probiotic. Allot of health complaints can be assisted if not resovled by treating the colon… Feel free to email if you want any more information on what Ive detailed here ana@wizbang.com.au.
I guess the only suggestion thing I can offer is make each change gradually so you can tell if its working or not. Too much change may just make things worse. Hang in there, I have found it does get easier and more enjoyable in time.
Nicky you sound a little like me in the reading department. I’ve enjoyed all the Sears books so I don’t think you can go wrong there. Have you been to the www.askdrsears.com website (hope that link is right)? I think Pinky’s book Parenting by Heart is exceptional if you are looking for something helpful and nurturing for you too! Pantley also has a NCSS for Toddlers and PreSchoolers so you may find that of interest… I found it on the Capers website. They have loads of parenting books if you wanted to check them out as a reference point. If you have any to suggest I look at further to those you’ve already detailed I would love to hear about them.
You raised something that my husband suggested we try with our Jesse re drink of water then back to sleep. I am going to wait though until Jesse is eating all the food that he is offered throughout the day. At the moment he doesn’t eat – sometimes hell eat breakfast but other time not and so on. So before I start gently denying at least some of his night feeds I want to be sure hes eating well. But it is definitely something we plan to try. Although we haven’t covered who will offer it to him but I have a sneaking suspicion it will be me =)
Jane, I have the same fleeting thoughts about leaving… One big roller coaster as you say! I truly wasn’t prepared for being a mother. Completing unrealistic expectations and perception to what live is really like.
I’m going to have to look at this Mems Green Sheep. Where should I look to buy it?
Anyway hope this is helpful and take care, Amanda

By rebeccab on Tuesday, July 26, 2005 - 03:56 pm:

Kathy, I have had good results with calendula too. I made up a blend with sorbolene, calendula oil and chamomile and lavender essential oil. I find it is really good for flare ups and wsa terrific when nicholas recently had chicken pox. don't know if it coincidence but only one of his blisters burst - all the rest just flattened down again. just put it on everywhere each nappy change.
We have also worked out that oranges are a big trigger for nicholas, no other food is a significant factor. and now he is 20 months, he only has it patchily and occasionally.
hope it helps, hang in there.
becc

By rebeccab on Tuesday, July 26, 2005 - 03:58 pm:

oh,kathy, and now nicholas mostly sleeps through the night, but only in the last month or so. just did it when he was ready.
this too will come to pass.
becc

By Pinky on Tuesday, July 26, 2005 - 11:00 pm:

Hi Girls - thanks Amanda -I have actually had a rough few months - my diagnosis is graves disease, an atoimmune thyroid disorder which affects every organ in one's body and is totally exhausting - thankfully the rollercoaster of balancing meds seems to be sorted but I had flu this last week. Now, its going , going - will be gone very soon! I sat my exams for lactation consultant yesterday ( my first day without a daytime nap lately!). seeing I had to have documented at least 6000 hours helping mothers breastfeed, plus required education hours - then do six hours of doozy exams, sorry I wont be recommending any formulas. If you are breastfeeding I cant see why you would bother - plain water is fine if bub is thirsty and if a breastfeed settles baby quickly, then this is a blessing really - think of it as mummy magic full of lovely immunity factors, brain growing goodies and cuddles.

One interesting point that often isnt taught is that the amount of breastmilk that a baby consumes at any age is very little more than what he consumes at 6 weeks. ie at about day 5 postnatally , the average mum will produce about 500 mls of breastmilk, by about 6 weeks this will be about 750 mls - and at 3 months about 800 mls - and this is all they ever need in quantity! Of course some mums will make a bit more, depending on baby's nursing and different sized breasts have different storage capacities(but this doesnt affect milk production, just how often baby needs a refill). It isnt 'hunger' due to diminishing milk that wakes babies, but rather, the factors that have already been mentioned that are often developmental - so unless you want to wean , it seems a bit pointless to offer inferior milk products.


Re Where is the Green Sheep? I was recently speaking to Mem Fox and she says its great to read Green sheep first(gets them mesmerised), then "Its time to sleep" - this is agorgeous book with baby animals going to sleep, very repetitive and sweetly soothing - so if you find green sheep isnt quite enough, add "Time to sleep" as well - or for a younger bub , just use Time to Sleep as its a bit shorter.

Pinky

By Amanda on Wednesday, July 27, 2005 - 08:39 am:

Hi Pinky, Gosh I am sorry to hear you have been diagnosed with Graves disease. I hope you don’t mind my saying this but Elaine Hollingsworths book Take Control of your Health and Escape the Sickness Industry is a must read as it covers Thyroid and Andrenal disorders. I know I go on about it allot but truly it’s a must read if you take your health seriously. I would be happy to forward you my copy if you are willing.
I hope you start to feel better soon...Its no fun being sick let alone when you are as busy as you!
Congratulations on your exam too... That’s great!
And you are absolutely right as always re. inferior milk products. It’s always good to get your perspective. In my despaired and sleep deprived self’s defense sometimes we have to try these things. But in saying that it has never sat right with me to introduce formula or milk for that matter but I was ignoring my intuition and good common sense.
It’s interesting you point out that the amount of breast milk being produced at the various stages. Ill try to remember that.
These books sound wonderful. Are they available at most bookshops?
Thanks again Pinky as always for your insight!
Take care Amanda

By Michelle on Wednesday, July 27, 2005 - 08:25 pm:

Hi Pinky. Those facts about the quantity of breastmilk are very interesting. Why do you think that the amount of formula feed to babies continues to go up?
Taliver refuses the bottle and even drinks from his sippy cup as though it were a breast which is quite cute, but the only times I've thought about formula were in my absence. Even then he wouldn't touch the stuff *LOL* now I just send a bottle of water with him to daycare and give him a feed when we get home. I sure helps me understand why Taliver slept longer stretches as a newborn than as a 6 month old though. Obviously he was hungary!

We are official 'side-car' sleepers as of last night. My hubby returns to tommorow night though, so I hope that goes well too.
Congrats in advance on become a lactation consultant Pinky!

Michelle

By Amanda on Thursday, July 28, 2005 - 08:36 am:

Hey Michelle, Excellent re side-car arrangement. Please let us know how you go. I so hope it works out for you all. All the trouble youve gone to and stuff. Good luck hey =)

By Michelle on Friday, July 29, 2005 - 11:06 am:

Ugh. Well, the first two nights...while my husband was away, he was fantastic...he had 4 & 5 hour sleep stretches and wasn't too bad. Yesterday he even slept in until 7.45 am (he usually wakes at 6-6.30). What was that you said, Pinky about the babies sleeping well as soon as the source of stress was taken away???
My husband returned last night, and Taliver was really good, went to sleep a bit late for him at 8.20 pm but didn't wake until about 10.30 so he wasn't doing too badly. But when he woke up, he was screaming and screaming and refusing the boob (this is what he has been doing the first 2 nights as well, but then he usually sleeps until 2am and then when he wake up, is happy to feed). And so, my husband go the shits and stomped out the the loungeroom to sleep. So I spend the rest of the night feeling guilty (because of course, it is MY fault that the baby screams!) and resenting the fact that my husband doesn't appreciate the fact that this is normal Taliver behavior- he just doesn't know about it, because at night time I am the only one who hears it in full volume! Well, obviously Taliver picked up on my stress, because then he started waking and screaming every hour or so until morning.

Why can't my DH cope with it? How do your husbands feel about co-sleeping? What can I say or do to make him relax and just accept that night-wakings are normal baby behavior, and we just have to cope as well as we can until he grows out of it? When I first brought up the side-car sleeping thing, he started talking about us going to Tresillian/Karitane again. (Which by the way, won't happen in a million years!) as if "okay, but if this doesn't 'work' then we have to get 'help'." Because he sees TJ's nightwaking as a problem to be solved and CIO an acceptable way to solve that problem. I just don't know where he gets these ideas from, seeing as his mum would never let any of her children CIO. I'm feeling so resentful towards him. I don't want too. I just want us to be a happy family, but things have been so tense between us ever since Taliver was born. Sometimes I feel as though he blames me for getting pregnant, although he'd never say as much. And I let him make me feel as though its my fault and that Taliver is my responsibility. I just wish that Taliver was more accepting of comfort so that he wouldn't cry as much, but he just pushes me away, or cries even louder if I try to calm him down.

Every time I try to talk to him about things he either gets defensive, or starts criticising all the things that I do wrong. I just wish I knew what do to fix things.

Anyway, sorry for the blab...thanks for listening.....
Michelle

By rebeccab on Friday, July 29, 2005 - 01:29 pm:

michelle,
i have been trying to send you an email. stay tuned,
becc

By Amanda on Friday, July 29, 2005 - 07:49 pm:

Hi Michelle, You poor thing...stuck in the middle. You are doing a fabulous job Michelle with Taliver and if DH refuses to see this then he needs to reassess the situation. My husband and I are also very tense... I just feel like Im in this alone. I tend to all of Jesse needs myself (day and night). As far as night wakings, Steve is fine. Jesse usually doesnt get too upset unless unable to get back to sleep and is frustrated, unwell (pain, tummy or something like that) or cold. Although Jesse never refuses the boob so Im not sure how you get around that. Does he like you singing to him? Or a night light... I find that when Jesse does get upset if I sit up and cuddle him hes better. So it doesnt happen that often and when it does Steves luckily ok with it. But in saying that, honestly this will sound harsh but 'too bad'. The way I see it is that we have allot on our plates and if making it easier is co-sleeping then he will just have to adjust. On an encouraging note its early days yet and everyone needs to adjust. DH needs to understand that there are more needs to be met than just his. And whether he beleives it or not the mothers usually come last... Ill add more in an email! Hang in there... Amanda

By Kimberley on Tuesday, August 2, 2005 - 06:48 am:

Hi guys,
sorry have been off-line, bloody technology!! Sorry to hear your having troubles with DH Michelle. Damien wouldn't notice a mack truck coming through our room, so the noise factor wasn't an issue, although he didn't like that his share of the bed reduced considerably (much like when I was pregnant though, lol). Over time he has been able to see the benefits (with some prompting from me) in that beth sleeps better and sleeps lighter if that makes sense, which helps brain development with more REM sleep (see Pinky's Parenting by Heart I think). He also loves that she knows he's there and when turning away from me (I still use the dummy occasionally for this as it cues her to roll over and go to sleep - oops but hey it works and is only a short time in her whole day and I pop it out when she's gone off - obviously justifying it to myself here) anyway, elsbeth rubs his back with her fingers, and he calls her the 'craw'.
It is a real balancing act and I know that they feel left out. I don't know what the answer is but I've found that damien gets hurt when I don't acknowledge his contribution (besides the sperm,lol) like cooking and doing the washing (sometimes). I guess we have to acknowledge that both partners have been through and are going through a momentous change in our lives, and focus on the positives (like our little precious ones), but hey I should follow my own advice too sometimes. Good luck Michelle! cheers Kimberley

By Michelle on Tuesday, August 2, 2005 - 08:08 pm:

Thanks very much Kimberley. Things have eased up around here thankfully. But, I have had to put Taliver back in his own room. He just wouldn't nap and the stress on our relationship was too exhausting. Don't be ashamed of using the dummy kimberley. We all do what we need to do and if it works, hey, that's brilliant. Often times I wish I had persisted with the dummy, but Taliver used to gag on it when he was little and I hated that. He still has his old dummies and does just about everything BUT put them in his mouth (unless you count putting them in the wrong way roung hahaha). I feel guilty about not co-sleeping, you feel guilty about using the dummy. Its ridiculous, we all just have to cut ourselves a break and know that we are doing the best job we can, and better than that, we are responding to our babies cues...i.e doing what works for this particular baby. I might be able to co-sleep with the next baby, but will need a dummy. You might not need a dummy with the next one, but find it sleeps better side-car or in its own room. Who knows?
Your right, focusing on the positives makes the world of difference. I think I need to remember to be more loving and less critical. More forgiving and less judgemental. Of David and myself.
Good to hear from you, hope your computer behaves itself, or we might have to find some gentle discipline techniques for IT!! LOL

By Pinky on Tuesday, August 2, 2005 - 09:24 pm:

Hi Michelle,
Glad to hear things are settling. I often think perhaps the guys angry reactions to sleep diturbance arent so different from mother's reactions - they dont have the hormones to help them connect and calm and tiredness can be a very irrational state. Liek us, they can take a while to grow into parenting - I guess this can depend on their own expectations and hwo realistic they are - what experience have they had with babies prior to having one of their own?

Im sure when they are rested, most guys can usually see things more logically if we are careful how we try and explain what it means for us. remember to tell them the things you appreciate/ that you see them doing well/ You are a great dad because..... I like the way you do XXX with baby. How would you encourage a child??? It works for partners too. Also helps to get the oxytocin flowing between you and partner as well as you and baby too

You are right - all babies are so different. After two boys who were easily shooshed with a "bust in the mouth" , Larissa used to become more and more agitated as I tried to nurse her to sleep. One day I popped her into her cot in desperation -she literally let out a sigh as much as to say, thank goodness that woman has finally left me alone. She relaxed , chatted to herself and went off to sleep -we cant actually make babies sleep with us if that's not what they want. You are so attuned to Taliver that he is getting his needs met - otherwise he would let you know that too. The best place to sleep is where everyone gets the best sleep - apart from bubs under 6 months being safest in the same room as parents,and parents responding when babies call for them I believe there are lots of variations that work well.

Regarding the dummy Kimberly - guilt is a wasted emotion - it works, it isnt doing any harm, you are all happy and Elspeth is having lovely cuddles so who cares.

Be as gentle on yourself and your beloved as you are to your babies!!!

By Kimberley on Wednesday, August 3, 2005 - 10:46 pm:

Hi Michelle
good on you for doing what works for you guys and thanks Michelle and Pinky about the dummy thing. I need to try to be more positive with Damien. cheers Kimberley

By Nicky on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 07:07 pm:

Hi Girls, Sorry to hear you've been so unwell Pinky, tho I'm glad it was diagnosed quickly, and that you are feeling a bit more 'normal'. I can appreciate the bablaning act required with the medication. Congratualations too with the successful finalisation of the lactation consultancy. Your gentle, balanced and open minded personality will be greatly welcomed by the wider community.

Well the last few months for us have been the usual rollercaoster that seems so common. We've had some wins then lost them. Currently I'm cosleeping with Wil on a mattress in his room and have also started having to stay for his day naps as well.

We are not sure how I got here (except that it was whilst Wil was sick), how we feel about it or what we are going to do about it. It is an issue with myself and DH in that we don't see much of each other anyway, with his long working hours, but apart from that DH is very supportive of it. I'm a bit resentful of having to stay for naps also as I now have no peronal space. I suddenly really appreciate the small amount I had before. I guess ideally we would like him to get used to his cot again, but he has an adversion to it currently and cries when you put him in it (many a failed bed to cot transfer has occured). I should add that I don't sleep very well with Wil as I'm such a light sleeper and a very restless/wiggly one (yes I know where Wil gets it from.)Sometimes I feel my wriggling is wakeful for him. Not ideal.

I would welcome any suggestions/comments as we are in foreign territory. WIl doesn't sleep in our big bed as it is all too much fun, and we can not get the room dark enough during the day. His mummy detector is stuck on high it seems, as he will often half roll over to touch my face (sometines smile, truly gorgeous) then roll back over and continue to sleep. If I'm not there then he wakes up and cries. I can sometimes race back in and dive on the bed, give him a cuddle and rock him back to sleep, but sometimes the damage is done (very frustrating after only 1/2 hr sleep, esp when it has taken an hour to get there!.

Also, technically, We plan to be pregnant again next year and am unsure how to work an infant into the equation if Wil has decided that this is how it has to stay (I have visions of us putting our queen size mattress in his room and all sleeping there).

FYI re: dummies - Wil has several with him whilst sleeping (one in his mouth, one in each hand and one spare, at least!) He loves them! He is very good at finding them in a dreamy haze and loves playing with them when awake. We only use them at bed time tho. It works for us.

By Kimberley on Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 12:39 pm:

Hi Nicky
know how you feel re the lying on the mattress on the floor and even for day sleeps. I've started rocking beth in my arms to sleep so I can at least watch tele or just be upright. When she's in a deep sleep I can move her to the mattress on her own. If I'm there when she goes to sleep, she's less likely to let me leave, which doesn't really make sense. I imagined by 3 years old, she would be fairly independent with sleeping and reassurance if needed. Will have to see what happens. Maybe others have some advice.
Re the dummy, I use one only for sleep and if I can't physically have my boob in her mouth, like in the car or as I've said earlier to cue her to roll over and go to sleep. That said, I lost her only dummy 2 nights ago, so getting to and staying asleep has been a bit of a challenge lately. In desperation, I sent hubby into the roof to dig out an old one but it was too lumpy and she wouldn't take it. So I'll either have to replace the lost one and my sanity or see if she can go without it, with more of me though. let you know, Kimberley

By Amanda on Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 09:34 am:

Hi Nicky,
We cosleep…however like you it wasn’t peaceful to being with. Tossing, turning and thrashing all over, contending for space, not used to mummy or daddy being beside him. But in time that does settle down. We don’t use a mattress but we have a futon arrangement with our king bed sitting on top of the slates. He can now negotiate how to get down which is really a load off. I used to lay down with Jesse for all his sleeps which initially were only 30mins. Then once we moved and were able to settle into a routine, I would strive for longer naps and it seemed Jesse also took to this well. So like you I would have some success in getting back before he woke if I did not stay with him and other times I didn’t. But in time that also took and now he settles very quickly when READY for sleep and sleeps mostly two something three naps a day of about an 1hr duration on average. Ive accepted that Jesse is just an active alert baby and is too busy to sleep. I see it now as a positive rather than a negative…which has help me cope enormously. I think its completely manageable regarding Wil continuing to co-sleep when your new baby joins you. There are heaps of co-sleeping families to attest to this. One suggestion is placing the cot in a side car arrangement so that Wil sleeps on the outer in the cot, and the new baby between you and Dad. Or you could place your family bed mattress on the ground and the cot or single mattress next to it – as an extension of the family bed and sleep in a similar arrangement. With the light in the room if this ends up being your plan its probably worth investing in some block out curtains – as you’ve many years ahead of you sharing your bed.
I agree on the Dummy thing, only used for bed and it works really well to cue Jesse for sleep. Especially if I don’t have enough milk to get him to actually sleep. Kimberley I think you just have to do what works. It must be tiring rocking Elsbeth. I couldn’t do it for Jesse he simply weighs to much and I don’t think he would like it – different sleep association anyway if you know what I mean… As in why is mum rocking me, let me up? Lol
Also Kimberley Jesse is that same, he sleeps longer if he went to sleep with me with him. I place a pillow next to him where I lay so that when he chucks a leg over he may think its me and continue sleeping (sneaky). I think its just a reassurance thing. I also think it depends on the child and how the parents manage the child moving out of the family bed. Likewise there are plenty of parents whose toddlers chose to sleep in a separate bed particular when new born had arrived.
Anyway hope this helps! Amanda

By Nicky on Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 11:09 pm:

Thanks girls, I appreciate the comments.

I'd forgotten about the rocking to sleep - I used to do it after a feed and then once asleep pop him in the cot (till this stopped working), but I hadn't tried it with the mattress. Wil is a heavy baby too, but I find by bouncing my feet/knees it means my arms/shoulders have to do less work.

Wil's a busy baby but needs about 3 hours sleep during the day or else the bags under his eyes start to look like I've hit him! If he slept better at night I'm sure he wouldn't need as much during the day. Oh well. I've found that if I stay and can get him past 45 min that he may do 1.5hr (always hopeful) and that it is usually safe to leave shortly after that. So at least I've begun to have a some time, 15 - 30 min (sometimes longer!!!), to myself again. It does my head in if I haven't showered and dressed by before lunch time. As a bonus I've actually started catnapping again whilst lying beside him. So things are looking up.

Cheers, Nicky

By Amanda on Friday, August 19, 2005 - 08:01 pm:

Hi Nicky, Its great to hear your catching some zzz too...always makes things seem a little brighter...at least it did for me. Take care Amanda

By Megan on Monday, August 29, 2005 - 06:00 pm:

Hi to all! I have a four month old daughter who is a very happy and healthy bub. She is a fairly good sleeper, averaging 1-2 naps per day and sleeping 7pm-6am with one feed in between. Ever since she was 2 weeks old she has virtually only slept in a bouncer that vibrates or in the pram or car. I am coming to the realisation that in order to fall asleep she needs to be "moving" which isnt always possible. I am currently trying hard to get her to sleep in her beautiful (and expensive!)cot but without much success.If I put her down awake she inevitably gets distressed and cries.We have had one night where she went to sleep by herself and stayed down for about 6hrs but we have yet to repeat this. Does anyone have any suggestions for me? At the moment this situation is working fine for the 3 of us and Bella is sleeping well but what happens when she grows out of the bouncer?

Thanks, Megan.

By Amanda on Monday, August 29, 2005 - 09:29 pm:

Hi Megan, Wow sounds like you are both doing a great job. I think it’s possible to gently change the sleeping situation. Allot of babies from what I understand like motion and find this the easiest way to go to sleep. I started out doing what 'they' tell you "you must put your baby down to sleep AWAKE" - bollocks to that. Jesse was taught this way but we changed that and now I am thankful when he goes to sleep on the breast! I feel that if you continually put her down to sleep in her cot (even if shes already asleep) then eventually when she does rouse in between cycles she will learn that this is where she sleeps and not be bothered and continue to feel comfortable/secure and sleep on. Its like they know what is expected! You could try using your existing methods to help her to go to sleep and then put her into the cot shortly after she is a sleep. Then when she wakes help her to go back to sleep in the cot if possible but if not what ever works...Ie lay down beside her if you have it set up so you can or breastfeed to sleep or dummy… Eventually she will learn that after she goes to sleep she expects to wake in her cot...and then in time she will (hopefully) sleep on (how long does she nap for now as this will help you gauge how many times you’ll have to help her go back to sleep in the cot until this became normal to her) and then eventually you can place her into the cot when she is just sleepy from being in her bouncer/pram and then just as she becomes tired and not need the bouncer/pram. Its possible just takes time and consistency. You need to work out a plan of how you want to manage it. As in you know that she will wake and need help to go back to sleep so decide what you will do in this instance. That way when it happens you know what to do and are consistent and confident for that matter. Then in time she will know what to expect. Hope that makes sense? Well that’s how I would go about it...for what its worth. Amanda

By Pinky on Monday, August 29, 2005 - 11:10 pm:

Sounds great Amanda - baby steps is the plan - Megan, as Amanda says, just changing a little bit at a time rather than 'cold turkey' is the key to making changes when you and baby are ready.

Another idea is to introduce another sleep cue ie music (try "Music for dreaming") as she 'rocks', then a week later,rock til shes almost asleep as you also play music/ pop her into bed drowsy (with music). Gradually wean her from rocking to music - later, gradually turn down the volume on the music. This may be a few weeks later but it doesnt matter. You could also let her play a bit in her cot just so she gets some happy associations with her cot - ie dont leave her to cry.

You may also like to learn baby massage- babies all seem to conk after a good massage (like us -I had a fabulous massage at the weekend) and that will be one good sleep a day - which can lead on to more sleeps without being rocked.

Just remember - this is how your bub has learned to sleep so make any changes in baby steps, just one sleep at a time -its not fair to suddenly change the rules.

You are doing a fabulous job.

Pinky

By Kimberley on Thursday, September 1, 2005 - 08:31 am:

Hi Megan
that's great advice from Amanda and Pinky. I have also found if I'm transferring Elsbeth from rocking or bfing to her mattress (I do this so she won't fall off her bed) I need to wait until she's fairly soundly alseep, when she was younger I could put her down still drowsy, but these days she's got to be out to it. She's getting used to waking on the mattress and sometimes will settle back to sleep. We also started cosleeping around 6 months of age and haven't looked back. Elsbeth wakes during the night still for feeds (she just turned 1), probably 2-3 feeds but neither of us really wake fully and I don't have to get out of bed. But then I do get a bit uncomfortable with her in our bed as it's a bit squishy, ok for winter but maybe in summer she won't want to be in with us!!! cheers Kimberley

By Megan on Thursday, September 1, 2005 - 07:47 pm:

Thanks girls for your advice! Im going to start implementing your ideas soon. I liked what Pinky said about letting Bella get a happy association with her cot. I feel it's important that she enjoys sleeping in her cot and that's why Im against CC. I dont want her to be upset about going to bed or that she feels Im subjecting her to something awful. I too tried CC after "advice" from a friend and it was a complete disaster. I was assured that after 15mins Bella would simply cry herself to sleep. In reality I could only stand it for 30 mins (it broke my heart) after which time Bella was screaming, sweaty and inconsolable. How does this positvely teach her to go to sleep? I know that it has worked for a couple of my friends but they also admit that it was a traumatic experience for both mother and baby- is getting your child to sleep like that worth the emotional cost? Anyway I just thought Id put my two cents in on what is a very controversial topic! Megan

By Natasha on Thursday, September 1, 2005 - 08:54 pm:

Hi Megan,
I have put my son Sam in his cot to play from very early on, and we generally have no issues (apart from this week!! lol!!) with him going to sleep in his cot. It has, as the girls have said, all been little steps at a time to get where you want! I have used Pinky's cd (the name escapes me right now!) oh yeah - Peace baby (lol!!) to get Sam ready for bed, and now that he is going into his own room I know that this will help him to stay calm and estabilish himself in the new environment. This will sound a little weird, but you have to use similar techniques and cues to "train" (for the sake of the word) your child as you would an animal. For instance, with race horses, they are taught to pee every time before a race by the cue of whistling. This is taught by whistling every time they pee and any time they pee and then eventually when you whistle the horse automatically takes the cue and pees!! Funny analogy I know but I hope this helps to get your girl comfortable with various environments and situations!
cheers

By Kimberley on Thursday, September 1, 2005 - 11:01 pm:

You're a scream Natasha, I've witnessed the horse weeing to a whistle thing and it's pretty funny!! (maybe that's 'cos I was 10 at the time, dunno)
Makes sense though about the association of music and sleep, we use music too. I've noticed lately that having the tele on hypes Elsbeth up a bit so will have to turn it off around bed time. Kimberley

By Natasha on Friday, September 2, 2005 - 08:09 am:

Thanks Kimberley!! lol!! I agree with the TV thing. Dave and I have a few shows we love to watch on the weekend and I know that if we watch these when Sam is awake and he gets a good eyeful then we have a really bad night. I don't turn the TV on until 5.30pm of an afternoon and I record any shows I want and watch them later. It is just too stimulating with all the pictures continually changing and flashing and its just too much for their brain to handle!!

By Amanda on Friday, September 2, 2005 - 08:19 pm:

Oh thats great Megan...sounds like you have a plan. Please post back and let us know how you go. Lols girls...horses peeing???

By Anonymous on Wednesday, October 5, 2005 - 12:12 pm:

I am desperate for some advice from any parent who has ever had success with stopping their toddler waking too early. My 20 month old has never slept beyond 5am and has recently started waking at 4am. Some mornings it is even between 3.30am and 4am. We put him to bed at 7pm without every any fuss (in fact it is sometimes a struggle to keep him awake till then). He appears to have had enough sleep when he wakes in the morning but we are like zombies! He is up and raring to go and either my husband or I will groggily get him up. He then konks out about 10am and sleeps on average for 1 and a half hours. He has a bottle to go to bed with and more often than not sleeps through until morning. My husband and I are constantly sleep deprived and the early mornings are starting to wreck havoc with our relationship. We have tried putting him down for a nap in the afternoon in order to put him to bed later without success and also ignoring him in the morning but he eventualy sobs so uncrontrollably that we feel guilty and worried that we are doing him permanent damage. Any help is very much appreciated!

By Michelle on Wednesday, October 5, 2005 - 08:36 pm:

Personally, I think its an age thing. I think as babys body clock goes from waking during the night and sleeping during the day as a newborn towards sleeping more at night and being awake more during the day their sleep patterns are constantly changing and evolving, and will probably gradually start to get better on its own. My only advice would be to go to bed earlier, so that by the time 5am rolls around, you have had a good nights sleep yourself. That way you can get up and play with our son and spend time with him before your husband goes to work (if he works days that is). Or perhaps go for a walk together (they do say excercise helps you sleep, so thats a double bonus). Or you and your husband could take turns getting up early with him so that you get to sleep in every second day.

Hope that helps, perhaps someone else will have some good suggestions for getting him to sleep in longer for you.
Regards
Michelle
P.S have you heard of Elizabeth Pantley's "No cry sleep solution for toddlers and preschoolers"? might be worth a look.

By Kimberley on Wednesday, October 5, 2005 - 09:42 pm:

Hi anonymous,
that's good advice from Michelle re sleeping earlier yourself even if it's a couple of times per week and sharing the early mornings. When I'm knackered after a few full on days, I'll lay down on the lounge after Elsbeth has dropped off and we both sleep there for a couple of hours before going to bed and it helps to have that catch up. I haven't read the no cry sleep solution, but have heard it's good. I remember something Pinky suggested to Beverly (I think) about getting her toddler to sleep longer and it was to do with waking them say half an hour earlier than their waking time and giving them lots of positive praise, so as to teach them to wake up when you come and get them. That way they learn to stay asleep until you wake them and it's like a reverse of controlled crying. Gradually you move that waking time back by say 10 minutes until it's at a reasonable time. I'm not sure if this was for middle of the night waking or morning waking. Hopefully Pinky can advise further and if it's suitable for a 20 month old. Good luck with it and hope you get more sleep soon. Kimberley

By pinky on Thursday, October 6, 2005 - 11:43 pm:

Hi Kimberly- the waking baby suggestion (that worked) was re a toddler who woke at the same time each night - not early waking -it may work but could just teach a bub like this towake even earlier since it seems he has had enough sleep in his day/ night cycle.

Yes I have had a child who used to wake early- like yours, well before MY moring body was up!
The girls suggestons of getting to bed early at least twice a week are great and sensible -it wasnt appropriate for me at the time as the early morning baby was the youngest-I also had teenagers and school aged kids so couldnt simply butt out early in the evening - used to get up with him so they werent woken at 4- 5 am - and lie like a zombie in the lounge while he played with blocks etc -of course at ths age he needed supervision so I usually eneded p playing but tried to make early ams as boring as possible.

After a few weeks his pattern changed - and with encouragement - but it wasnt a quick process. Now for some suggestions!

Sounds like your tot has already definitely had enough sleep. I am wondering - does he have 2 day sleeps? Sounds to me its time to get rid of the morning nap - as really, this is an extension of his night sleep.

two ways - either cold turkey by distracting and keeping him up longer so he has a midday sleep -or a better way is to extend the time he goes down for his morning sleep by 15 - 30 minutes later( as he can manage) each day, then either keeping him up in the faternoon, otr waking ghim so he doesnt sleep lat in the afternoon, the aim is to end up with one midday sleep and no late afternoon sleep - ie one sleep per day!

This way he might start taking a decent sleep at night.

And/ or you could gradually shift bedtime 15 minutes later each night and see if he sleeps longer in the morning.

Also, is sunshine in his room waking him? ?? get some darker curtains/ blinds

Noises? ie neighbours/ traffic? -set a clock radio alarm to go off about anhour before he normally wakes -set it on a classical station onlow volume.

?? full bladder ? hunger? Give a snack nearer bedtime.

If you cant manipulate his day wakings so he takes more of his sleep at night, all you really can do is try and get to bed earlier a few nigts a week - and take turns when possible.

Can you leave a few toys and a sippy cup next to his cot to buy you a wee bit more time?

Remember - "gradually with love" as you make changes, this is less stressful and more permanent in the long run. It isnt your babys fault that he has had enough sleep already.

Best wishes,
Pinky

By Kimberley on Friday, October 7, 2005 - 10:23 pm:

That's great advice Pinky, will try with Elsbeth in the future re trying to reduce her day sleeping time. Thanks, Kimberley

By nicky on Wednesday, October 12, 2005 - 12:00 am:

Hi girls,thought I'd share my amazing updates.

Well after my previuos dramas where Wil suddenly would only sleep with cosleeping, then he changed again and was happy to go back into his cot - just tried settling him in there again one day and he was happy and popped off to sleep with patting.!!?? It didn't work for all sleeps but I was now able to transfer him into the cot after falling asleep on the mattress and he got there eventually. I must say I was happy to sleep in my own bed again with my husband.

So then a few weeks before he turned one we left him to play for a while before settling him to sleep and we realised it had gone quiet by 15 minutes!! With very little intervention he just worked it out for himself! He has mostly kept it up except when he is sick or overtired he needs a bit of company and falls asleep either on the mattress or on my lap.


Wil has also started going from 2 to 1 day naps, but it is 1st thing in the morning and can sleep up to 3 hours and then be up from miday-ish till 7pm. Interesting Pinky what you say about trying to stretch the morning sleep to be a bit later. I have tried and it has backfired several times, but I think I stretch him more 30 - 60 minutes, which pushed him into way overtired - really thru him out. 15 - 30 minutes would be less stressful. I think I have decided that I really don't have a good reason (unlike anonomous)to mess with his sleep, and should be greatful that a pattern, even tho not ideal, has emerged (until the next time he gets sick!!)

I've had a look at Elizabeth Pantley's "No cry sleep solution for toddlers and preschoolers" and was really impressed. Had some great ideas. I'll probably get it just to have on the bookshelf and use it to avoid the toddler sleep problems before they arise. (I know my disipline boundaries are already a bit fuzzy and my little man is living up to his name 'Willfull Wil!

Rambling again..... Thanks girls for all the support in the past. Really kept me going, even when I didn't have time or energy to do a post.

Cheers Nicky

By Rachel Patchett on Wednesday, October 12, 2005 - 11:10 am:

Hi everyone

I am new to your forum but I am looking for some support and advice. I have a gorgeous 10 month old boy. He has always been a very good sleeper, he is a good eater and loves his breastmilk. Now that he is more active, crawling, standing up, I cant get him to lie down and rest, we have a flexbile sleep rountine and I keep a watch for tired signs as soon as the yawning starts he's off to bed, about 2-3 hrs after getting up. He lies down and rubs his eyes and I check on him through his peephole, he is lying down, 10-15 mins later he is sitting playing, 30 mins later his is grizzling and then he starts to get angry and shouts and roars, I quitely go in fix his bed and kiss him saying "Its sleep time now baby, have a sleep now." But he is already trying to get up, I wait at the door and listen to hear if he is just angry or upset, I then go in and check his nappy, give panadol if his teeth seem to be giving him grief (I check these things before he goes to bed too) but as he hasnt quite mastered sitting down after standing up, he gets more tired and he cant lie back down, but everytime I go back in to reassure him and lay him back down he gets even angrier. He does not have a dummy and I have even relented (tooth decay) and given him a small sipper cup with watered down juice today, he has now been up since 4.ooam when he cried for an 1 hour, I got up gave him a nice cuddle, some breastmilk and panadol as his ears and cheeks were quite hot. He then cried a little and settled, 30 mins later he was off again, my husband then settled him and he slept till 6.30am, its now 11.00am and he still isnt asleep he is back in bed (again) with his drink, he is yawning, rubbing his eyes and roaring with anger, but he is still playing. I also suffer from clinical depression which has been good for a while but I am finding my mood swings returning from lack of sleep and frustration. I dont like listening to him cry as there is obviously something not right but Im getting very stressed out. I have even tried sitting beside his cot and laying my hand on his back and rubbing him but he gets so angry.

Some advice would be so helpful. Cheers from Rachel

By Kimberley on Wednesday, October 12, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

Hi there
Nicky, that's good news about Wil voluntarily changing his sleeping and gives you a break.
Hi Rachel, I'm not sure what's causing your son's change in sleeping, but around that age, Elsbeth seemed to change her sleeping habits and would stay awake for longer between sleeps, even when I thought she was due for a nap. She also went through stages of wanting to be held a lot for sleeping, possibly to do with teething, and wanted to be breastfed to sleep for comfort. Hope this helps, Kimberley

By Amanda on Thursday, October 13, 2005 - 07:58 pm:

Hi Nicky, Wow sounds like you are going great guns with Wil…good for you! I just got Elizabeths new book actually. Ill post back once Ive had a chance to read it!

Hi Rachel and welcome! Similarly to what Kimberley has suggested Jesse would subtlety stretch his awake periods and if I tried to put him down before he was ready he wouldnt have a bar and protest and cry. Has your routine changed? As in it sounds normal that when he starts to rub his eyes you take him off to bed which now should queue him for sleep. Sounds like he is having trouble settling himself for some reason?? If the routine hasnt changed then perhaps it is that he isnt tired yet?
He sounds very even tempered to entertain himself and wait for you to return each time.
I had read recently that its important to protect their sleep schedule while adjusting it to cater to changes. As sometimes they can fight fatigue and if they learn to do this too often they have trouble settling. This could play apart.
Also if you are against a dummy then perhaps just water to avoid the tooth decay would be safest. If he’s not accustomed to the juice then he wont miss it. The bottle of water might satisfy his need to suckle.
It sounds to me like hes not well - all in all. Perhaps you could read a little to him before you place him in the cot to help wind him down and help prepare him for sleep! They have so much going on with all the learning and discovery and so if hes sick too he probably doesnt know how to help himself and slow down to rest.
Try not to get too frustrated as it happens to us ALL! Remember this too shall pass!
I remember reading someone elses great advice which was "its all how you perceive it to be in that its only a problem if you believe it to be one". This helped me enormously and I hope it helps you too!
Good luck and I would love to hear how you go with him. Please feel free to email me ana@wizbang.com.au if you need to vent or support. Anytime! Take care Amanda

By rebeccab on Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 08:40 pm:

i too, got elizabeth's toddler book a couple of weeks ago. again, not for everyone but i find a lot of the stuff really interesting and for the most part, worth giving a go.
i vote for 'not well' as the cause of the disturbance, primarily. hot ears? hmm, maybe worth a Gp visit. and new skills play havock with sleep too. and with him in a tizz and you feeling like you are fragile with your background of depression it must feel like you are each making the other worse. have you got a support network? we are all here but practical support is invaluable.
if it helps, most of us have been there. i too have had depression, long periods of frequent night waking and a husband working interstate for months on end. i managed to ivf conceive another baby and now have 2 delightful little boys who intermittently challenge me with sleep but i can love them and not feel consumed by it. but it is hard to see the end of the tunnel sometimes. there is no finish line with this mothering caper, they grow and we grow and we get better at understanding each other along the way. keep your chin up and stay in touch - we care how you are going.

By Rachel Patchett on Monday, October 17, 2005 - 02:09 pm:

Hi Girls

Thank you for your posts, it good to know that others care. My support network is o.k, My mum is great, very encouraging, Mother in law (in New Zealand) she's not so great, doesnt call much and makes me feel inferior (even though I have Diploma of Early Childhood & taught for 8 years) I do have a caring friend with 5 kids so she is a big help, but she tells me to just leave Reece alone as he will go to sleep on his own, well he does go to sleep on his own WHEN he is still lying down but once he is standing up he just yells and cries. So now I have tried stretching his time out and this seems to be helping enormously but he is going to 4 hours up to 1.5-2 hours down and this seems like a long time to be awake for a baby but he is happy and content when he wakes, so I tried cutting it down to 3.5 hours up and he just howls (do you think he is trying to tell me something, "AH IM NOT TIRED LADY!!"). He is getting his top teeth at the moment so this disturbs him a bit to. I have also found that if he is up for 4 hours but is in his high chair eating then we go to the shops and he is stuck is his stroller and doesnt burn off all his energy he wont go to sleep either. He is even starting to push a heavy toy box around and walks quite confindently with it, amazing how quickly he is growing up. I just love being a Mum now, Reece is actually our second child but his older brother died when he was 3 days old in July 2003,(hence the depression) so I am probably a bit to overprotective and anxious about his behaviour, so I am making a huge effort to be a bit more relaxed and not be Super Mum, as that is just ridiculous, he will be grown before I know it and be rolling his eyes at me and telling his friends that Im horrible, ooohhh I dread those days.
Thanks again for all your support, I really needed it.

Cheers from Rachel

By rebeccab on Monday, October 17, 2005 - 04:02 pm:

glad things seem a little better rachel. sounds like you really have given things a lot of thought. one of the girls here once posted something along the lines of 'it's because we worry about doing a good job that tells us we are already doing a great job' (please correct and clarify, whoever it was, i often try to use that quote and usually stuff it up!) and the quote of the day in todays melbourne Age newspaper was 'the whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people are so full of doubts' isn't that great?
we too had our first son die in 2000, our subsequent boys were born in 2003 and 2005 (18 months apart! steep learning curve) and i often find myself feeling guilty for not being grateful every moment of the day. but don't apologise for the way you are with him. of course you feel protective (no such thing as overprotective, you can't over-love them either) and i have given myself permission for being anxious too, it is hard not to want to control everything when you have had one of your babies taken from you. practicing the art of surrender is a lifelong effort for me. i think you'll find though that lots of us here have similar thoughts whether we have experienced loss or not. it's all part of wanting to do the best you can. have you read Pinky's books? i can recommend them, and some others if you like. it's good to help you get a bit of perspective on those challenging days. but you sound like you are doing a terrific job and parenting responsively to Reece (love the name, too. it's on the list for our next bub). and don't forget, it is a huge effort to have lost your son and have another baby in a short period of time, give yourself some breathing space and accept that you only have a limited amount of head space. you can't worry about everything simultaneously - make some worries wait in line!
take care,
becc

By Kimberley on Monday, October 17, 2005 - 05:27 pm:

Hi Rachel
boy, you've been through a lot, I really feel for you, and commend you for having another baby. Like Becc said, you're doing a great job and I think the quote goes something like if you're worried about doing a good job, you must already be doing a great job. I figure there are a lot of people who aren't worried so much about the job they do and that's a real shame. I know I come across as over-anxious to people who just don't seem to 'get' the importance of boosting your littles self esteem form the beginning and helping them to reach their potential in every way. I've seen some people break their child's/grandchildren's spririts in order to make them easier to handle. I read something somewhere that said you might have an easier toddler on your hands, but not so when they're grown up. I guess by putting in the hard yards now, it'll pay off later. But you know, even though it's hard work, it's enjoyable too, and the bond you have with them is priceless.
On the mil side of things, mine's like that too, and I'm yet to find a solution. Is your partner understanding, I guess for me that's a consolation at the moment. It's bizarre but I sort of think she doesn't know how hurtful she is, or can't stop herself, dunno. I'm glad you've found Pinky's site, it really is a life line, and so reassuring knowing there are so many other mums with great advice and a shoulder to lean on when you need it. I also recommend Pinky's books, they're straight forward and take the mystery and rules out of child rearing and most of all give you permission to enjoy parenting with your heart!!! take care, Kimberley

By Pinky on Monday, October 17, 2005 - 06:19 pm:

Gee you girls are a lovely bunch! I have been head down bum up in my baby sleep book so sorry havent been floating around - you all give great advice and support! I have given myself permission to leave work alone this afternoon - my head is wandering anyway.

Hello and hugs to Rachel -please be kind to yourself - you have been through so much -Sorry to hear about your first baby -I am in awe of your strength and committment and love how you are enjoying Reece. He sounds like a really fun and active boy -I used to find that a run (rather like a puppy!) in the morning would help settle my boys later in the day. Have you tried something like GymbaROO? Or baby swimming? To break the momentum of having to constantly chase/ amuse an active bub and the isolation . This is a tough stage for little ones as so much development is going on that their world is contsntly changing - obviously I dont need to tell you but sometimes it becomes too easy to let the "shoulds" get into your head (he SHOULD have 2 sleeps , He SHOULD have a routine, you SHOULDNT spoil him etc etc!)

I have been thinking as I write this book on baby sleep how crapped off I feel at people who tell us to leave babies to cry - make them fit our lives - dont be "over"protective (I got that with all mine so you arent alone) etc etc - I always think, what if your child was taken from you ( my brother and sil's first bub died at 6 months) - what would you want to remember - cuddles, loving times, snoozing together? What messages would you most want to give your child - that they were a burden or a joy?

today I had a beautiful email from a mum who told me the story of losing a baby at 7 weeks - and how she slept with him and what beautiful memories she has -there are no regrets about leaving him to cry and this is soo important.

Im feeling quite emotional today -having a baby is a priviledge and a gift. If people dont think a baby should change their lives, get a plant - preferably artificial so it can just stand in the corner without attention.

I dont know why some grandmothers are quite hard - maybe they missed something when their own kids were small and they cant cope with the intimacy you have with your baby, or perhaps they genuinely think they are dishing out useful advice -I am going to be a grandmother - Larissa(25)is due next April. I know its a way off but Im already excited. Please girls if I start being a mean old moo - kick me into line!

Love,
Pinky

By Michelle on Monday, October 17, 2005 - 07:18 pm:

Hahaha, Double congrats Pinky, that is lovely news! I can't imagine you being a mean old moo- unless of course your so busy cuddling and cherishing your new grandchild that Larissa doesn't get a chance to for herself!
Big Hugs
Michelle

By Amanda on Monday, October 17, 2005 - 08:10 pm:

Hi Rachel, I think everyone has covered everything lol... I’m also sorry to hear about your first born. It must be deeply saddening. Sounds to me that you are doing splendidly with Reece. Every baby of course is different but he sounds like hes getting enough sleep if its any consolation. Jesse is 1 on Thurs and his sleep varies and can go with enough distraction most of the day without a second nap. Not ideal but hes a great little guy and rolls with it. As it has been mentioned I try to cherish every moment and for the most part it works.
Pinky I just wanted to add that I love how you put "If people dont think a baby should change their lives, get a plant - preferably artificial so it can just stand in the corner without attention." If you dont mind I may use that!
Oh and congrats too Pinky on becoming a grandmother... Gosh your family are very lucky to have you! Big hugs to all and sweet dreams...

By Kimberley on Monday, October 17, 2005 - 09:19 pm:

That's wonderful news Pinky about becoming a grandmother!!!! Like Amanda says, your family are very lucky to have you. I like the plant analagy too, he he. Ooh I think you're right re the grandmothers possibly missing out on something with their own and feeling it when they see our close bond. Sometimes I ask for trouble, when recently urged by mil to put Elsbeth in a room at her house, I declined as usual, and feeling as though my parenting had been challenged, I later said 'well Elsbeth doesn't need to suck her thumb (DH sucked his until about 12 years of age) because she's got me!!' Well, I'm sure I'll pay for it with another quip from her, but it was worth it. That's great news again about your grandchild on the way. take care everyone, Kimberley

By Amanda on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 08:56 am:

Lol Kimberley, Good for you and keep them rolling. Its how you feel and you are aware of the impact your comments may or may not have. More power to you! Amanda

By Kimberley on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 07:05 pm:

Thanks, will keep her on her toes!!

By Jo on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 11:15 am:

Congrats Pinky on the news of a gorgeous little one on the way...what a fortunate little bubby to have a Grandmother like you...Will you be Grandma,Nanna???

Rachael - I feel for you with the loss of your first baby and admire your strength to carry on, please don't be so hard on yourself (do as I say not as I do - hee hee) we women are soooo good at beating ourselves up on how we manage or not manage situations. Know that you have plenty of kind and caring support on this forum, the girls here are a godsend to me.

I have a MIL who had 7 children so there is nothing that she doesn't know!!!!!! Try telling her something - you can't she already knows it. When our 7 or 5 year old ask a tricky question like why is the sky blue, we reply ask Grandma she knows.... It makes us giggle anyway.

Yesterday Seamus (8 1/2 mths) wouldn't sleep in the afternoon, he was happy in his cot but would not go to sleep!! I started to stress because I thought he'd drop off just before 3.30 - school pickup- anyway I took some deep breaths and at 2.45pm picked up out of his cot and was greeted with a very cheeky smile!!! He then went on to stay up even later, not getting to bed till 6.30pm - this is from 12pm!!!

So I had to ride it out last night, I felt I couldn't wake him for tea at 7.30pm so I waited until 10.30pm and gave him a roll over feed and half a banana (too tired for anything else)knowing that he'll probably wake at some ungodly hour because his hungry and yep he did 4am!!

I'm just thankful his not a cranky baby when he's tired.

Wishing you all a happy and stressfree day.

Jo

By Amanda on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 01:26 pm:

Hi Jo, Sounds like Seamus is a jolly chap and likes to keep you guessing - Jesse and I do this dance all the time... We encountered a similar situation yesterday too in fact where he slept through dinner and woke around 7pm. I gave him a little omelet and then back to bed for booby and sleep. Go with the flow I always say...and try not to over analyze things...which is hard for me 'cause my head is always ticking over... And as you say you are blessed with an easy going and happy baby...which is wonderful! Take care Amanda

By Jo on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 09:10 pm:

Thanks Amanda,

You sound so calm and carefree about all this parenting stuff, I can't imagine you're head always ticking over.... Although I'm sure you probably have your moments just like we all do...We've hit the 'text book' routine today, two day time naps all meals at 'respectable' times and in bed by 8pm!! I wonder what the next 12 hours will hold!! Must go Kath and Kim calling!!!

Jo

By Rachel on Thursday, October 20, 2005 - 03:54 pm:

Hi everyone

Thank you so much for your encouraging posts, they make me feel so much better and they are quite hilarious. As catty as it sounds, I like it when us girls can be a little cheeky to the MIL, I REALLY want to like mine but she just makes it so hard. She is very p---ed off because I dont want to go and stay with her for a week next March while DH goes to a wedding 6 hours away and he is staying there for another 3 days, so I would be by myself with them and 3 Border Collies that live inside, AAHHH! I tried to explain why it just wasnt workable and I do know how much she desperately wants to see Reece but it so much easier if they just come to Australia (especially as they both work and dont have any financial concerns), she told me they were not good enough excuses as people in NZ NEED!! to meet Reece, so now she wont talk to us. She once told me she wanted to be a better Grandmother than she was a Mother, my reply was "But your sons are still alive you can always keep being a better Mother", so maybe that is it, she wants to live vicariously through Reece, mmm I dont think so! My husband is great but I have to be careful how much I spit about her to him, after all its not his fault she is an old bat!;}
On a cheerier note, I went to stay with my Mum & Dad for a few days for a bit of spoiling, and Reece had to sleep in a portacot, well he couldn't stand up properly so he just caught up on sleep and he was a much cheerier boy and he can also get down now when he stands up, HOORAY! that has made such a difference. He still cries a little but then he gets himself down & goes to sleep. He seems more content and I feel much more calm. Everyone wins, well so far anyway.

It is so sad to know that there are other families on the forum with stories of loss, you sometimes forget that there are always other people around you that are dealing with such devestating grief. Even though no-one ever thinks they are being brave or strong we must talk to ourselves everyday and say "I AM doing a great job", self talk is a fabulous tool if used right.
Congrats to Pinky on being a Grandmother very soon, that is splendid news for all the family.
Hope you all keeping well and trying to take good care of yourselves.
from Rach

By Amanda on Thursday, October 20, 2005 - 05:39 pm:

Lol Jo!!!
Rachel, thats funny re. our being cheeky regarding our MIL's... or Mother really in my case... My you sound like you have your hands full with your MIL. Its not right if you dont mind my saying that she is trying to guilt you into coming to stay if its not convenient. After all you are the one caring for a baby whos needs should be first. As difficult as its going to be I think you should stand your ground.
Your Mum and Dad sound very supportive which is great!
Its true what you say about self talk... I call it mine elevator music...which for me is frequently tuned to "bag Amanda" channel. Anyway I try just like the rest of you...
Take care and good luck with your MIL.
Amanda

By Jo on Thursday, October 20, 2005 - 07:57 pm:

AAAHHHH Yes aren't we females are so intune with bagging ourselves!!!

Oh Rachael that MIL of yours has some issues.......don't give into her guilt. If she wants to do the best by Reece and you then she'd come over here and not demand you go there just to show off on her own turf - she sounds very much like my own mother (who I don't have anything to do with, cause it's easier that way - you don't get hurt)enough about me. Stick to your guns and look after your family first!!!!

Jo

By pinky on Thursday, October 20, 2005 - 10:02 pm:

Gee girls - even if I turn out to be a "know it all grandmother" I cant imagine "NOT TALKING' if I get P'ed off -or for any other possible reason!

Rachel - dont you know its a tradition for grandchildren to be touted around like show ponies? Dont worry too much, by the time you have a 5 year old, grandma will be happy with his photo on her wall - ask Jo - 5 year olds arent very 'showoffable".

Seriously tho- its REALLY hard when one family lives such a distance -my own family is in NZ and my mum has been hanging out for a GREAT grandchild - maybe she wants to be a better great grandmother than she was a mother or grandmother!! Maybe all her friends beat her to be a "great!' but Im sure she would love this baby to come and stay with her - so she can show all her people! We'll cross that bridge when it comes!

Jo and Amanda are right - family first, but do consider that a week with a cute wee fellow may get you off the hook for the next few years and perhaps even get them bonded so they do come and visit you over here next time - by which time your bub may be into everything so the novelty will be worn off.

If I become a know all grandma (although its probably easier to have daughter who can tell me to get out of her face than a DIL who probably would find it harder) I will be relying on you girls to please keep me in line!

Pinky

By Kimberley on Thursday, October 20, 2005 - 11:22 pm:

Ha ha you girls are funny!! MIL's, DIL's, mothers, grandmothers, why do we give each other a hard time?? Is it because we don't want our own shortcomings to show? I wonder if it's a recent thing or has been going on for generations. Is it something to do with younger women having more opportunities and thus creating resentment in generations above, or is it that older generations feel that they're not needed anymore. There's also the competition between mums. A question for Dr Phil maybe or what would Kath and Kim think? Nothing a glass of Chardy wouldn't solve. 'Brett, put her down, you're spoiling her!!'-Kim

By Amanda on Friday, October 21, 2005 - 09:24 am:

Hey girls... What a laugh!
Some interesting points raised Jo and Im sure you will make the right decision. It will come from the gut...(if you know what I mean not your heart (guilt about not going) and not your head (not about standing your ground). But a place where you know what to do instinctively... Good luck! Amanda

By Rachel on Saturday, October 22, 2005 - 08:50 am:

You girls are funny... thanks for the advice, I keep thinking I should just go, but to be honest i dont really trust her with Reece and I think that is the main reason I dont want to go. We recently got married in Fiji (FABULOUS, highly recommended for stress free fun!) and MIL wouldnt let anyone hold Reece and glared at people that did (we had about 9 other people with us) whinged about having to fly 3 thousands km to even SEE her grandson, she gave him some white bread it clagged up and he choked on it (seriously choked) and then when I spoke to my husband and said could you ask your Mum to be more careful she gave him another piece and he chocked on it again. My Goodness!! Gave him a wine cork to suck on that she had also dipped into her wine glass! There were a few other things to, but Im just being a complete whinger. But seriously am I being a b--ch regarding this, after Fiji I could have throttled her, she doesnt seem to think about consequences, and I spent 3 days just stressed and feeling furious. Scott was good about it and did speak to her but she just kept going over the top of us. Sorry to whine about her, but she does infuriate me or is it because I didnt want to rock the boat so I didnt say anything to her and Im mad at myself for feeling gutless? Any thoughts girls....
Kimberley, you big hornbag, love Kath & Kim, I always have a good belly laugh. Jo, that is so hard coming from your own Mum, they are supposed to be on our side regardless, but I agree with you its often easier to stay away when others dont seem to realise they are hurtful, how much can you take from someone who's supposed to love you unconditionally?
Im sending you girls god thought and I think about how you are all going most days. Keep well and take care of your selves. (Ha easier said than done...)
Cheers from Rachel
P.S Reece is sleeping so well now, Im such a proud Mummy!!! Think he will be walking soon, cheeky little thing he is.

By Rachel on Saturday, October 22, 2005 - 09:03 am:

Hi again girls..
Just wanted to ask your beautiful babies names and ages, after all this is website is about our little ones, oh and a bit about you to your marital situations and ages.
(You can make that one up if you want to!! LOL) I feel like I know you guys quite well at the moment but since I dont, I would like to find out a bit more about you all.
My situation is I just got married (in August), I have 2 sons, eldest son Kane died in July 2003 after a natural birth, Reece was born in December 2004 by C-section as I am never having another natural birth ever again, as Kane was left severly brain damaged and died after complications from lack of Duty of care during his birth. My husbands name is Scott and he is mostly lovely (aren't they all). I turned 30 in June and I live in Canberra.
Cheers again
from Rachel

By Kimberley on Saturday, October 22, 2005 - 02:13 pm:

Hi Rachel
thanks, I like to think of myself as a bit of a hornbag, though it is hard when your a mother!!! - Kim
Rachel, that's dreadful about your first baby and the complications from his birth. I'm really sorry. Can I ask if it was because he wasn't monitored properly or was it to do with anatomy (I guess I'm a bit worried about natural birth as I ended up emergency CS and wonder if it's because of narrow hips). I also may have a bent tail bone from a bike stack when I was a kid so thought that may be the reason too.
You're MIL sounds awful, I know I should be positive but she sounds like a jealous bat. I think your feelings are warranted re not letting her look after Reece, had she had too much to drink or is it just her?
My MIL is similar re being a cow and I think the whole wedding issue highlights their insecurities to the max. I had an argument with MIL 2 days before our wedding, initiated by her, and she told me she was very unhappy about her son getting married, nice well-wishes hey? She turned up at the wedding with no makeup and looked like she'd cried for 2 days, I mean you've got to let them go some time and I think he could have found a worse wife than me!! Maybe that's the point, he was meant to marry a little mouse with no brain that she could push around. I'm getting carried away but ooh she makes me mad and I really just want to get along with her, but she has issues with me. Since becoming a mother, she has bagged me out lots of times and even given me totally incorrect advice re solids (she thinks allergies start because babies aren't exposed early enough to dairy and eggs!!) and other doosies. Recently, she even made a comment that I felt better after feeding Elsbeth, like I was doing it for my own benefit (she's nearly 14 months now). I probably was stressed as it was night and I was doing what was needed to get her dressed in jarmies and into the car and hubby was oblivious and didn't help. And at their place, they interfere with my parenting of her, like offer her sweets and just generally pain in the neck stuff, so I felt under the spotlight with them. I don't know what the answer is with in-laws, I think it just takes time and the weird thing is that to other people, sometimes MIL brags about me, so I just can't work her out. Anyway, good luck with her, and I guess it's hard to not let it come between you and your husband, as we've had arguments about her, but generally we are in agreement about her but it just puts us under pressure. I find I feel better when I have my say about things to the in-laws or sometimes I just don't take any bait and don't give them any response either. The other day, MIL asked if Elsbeth would ly in our bed at home for a nap, I think to ascertain if we co-sleep, I just shrugged my shoulders and ignored her and then FIL said well does she and I did the same to him. I'm prepared for the co-sleeping Q and I'm just going to say to them that I don't agree with their parenting styles and what we do works or it's none of their business or that's a personal Q. Two weeks ago, she even told me that having the next baby will be easier as Elsbeth will help and I've done the hard work and it's best to have them close together. I feel that I don't have much of a life outside of raising Elsbeth right now and I don't think it would be fair on her or the next bub or me for that matter to have another one yet. MIL's desperate for a grandson to carry on the family name (Damien's the only son and she's obsessed with having boys), but she really needs to get a life and live it for herself. I'm raving on, but obviously needing to vent so thanks for the opportunity and for listening girls.
I'll post in a new thread about our personal details Rachel. cheers Kimberley

By Amanda on Saturday, October 22, 2005 - 03:23 pm:

My Rachel your MIL sounds like a nightmare… You poor thing. No well given the history I would definitely be hesitant to spend time with her… You know one lesson I had to learn when becoming a mum is that sometimes your going to have to upset a few people or ruffle some feathers as a means to protect your baby etc. It sounds like your just getting warmed up! I think you are justified and if not before now you haven’t had a chat with her about the extent of her involvement or your expectations it might be the perfect time to set some boundaries. Put it this way even if you don’t you aren’t happy so at least this way you are being clear and then its up to her to respect your wishes… Which of course she wont as we all know but at least you have tried to make the most of a difficult relationship! I think you are spot on with her feeling threatened with the marriage. I know few MIL’s that haven’t reacted badly to their sons getting married… Although honestly mine was an expectation but we had exceptional circumstances…she was terminally ill and really wanted to see her son wed! Which she did god love her. Also I think its understandable that you didn’t want to rock the boat on your wedding day and perhaps you are annoyed with yourself/situation for not having an opportunity to say your piece…but your time with come. If it were me I would give it some thought and be very clear when that opportunity arises. On a lighter not that’s lovely that you think of us often…me to actually! You should be very proud of your mummying…and Reece sleeping well is juts another testament to the fact!
Kimberley its interesting you say about your tail bone because I suffer with something similar…Bowen worked magic on mine and when I can afford it again I will return for more treatment. I am also considering Cranial Sacral Therapy too…apparently very good for coccyx. Anyway moving right along…
Im sorry your MIL was such a cow before your wedding. I can imagine what a blow that would have been and a dampener… Where does one go from a comment like that? Kind of sets the scene for the future. I guess just rise above it as best you can. These are her insecurities not yours…
You know her unhelpful and bitter comments are just a reflection of her self! Try not to be sucked in. Perhaps Damian needs more coaching as to directing their attention else where in times like this!
The bragging is all about her not you unfortunately…but you know this.
As I mentioned to Rachel I would try to be as clear as you can without too much discomfort to yourself and those involved (if you care) so that they know the boundaries. I would rather someone be direct with me that b*tch about it if you know what I mean. But hey perhaps that’s just me. Not giving them a response either is good! Although it depends on the reason why…in that you shouldn’t feel that you can’t say what you do with Elsbeth. If they want to ask the dangerous questions then let them have the facts. You know a comment that worked with my Mum was “You don’t have to agree with it – it just is what it is!”. I would put it all out there and just let them gag on it. Why should you anguish over the details when ever they ask? Another way of undermining you and making you feel like crap. Nahh give them all the gory details and watch them quiver and froth… And for what its worth I agree about spacing children out… I get the same comments and I just say well until a miracle occurs and Steve can do it we’re not having one until I’m ready which wont be for another four years or so. And smile which always gets them because they don’t know what to do or how to take you! Take care all… Amanda

By Pinky on Saturday, October 22, 2005 - 10:57 pm:

You are soo funny Amanda! what cows of MILs you have girls!
Knowing this Rachel -I would totally back you re not staying with your MIL - letting bubs suck a wine cork is downright dangerous and she isnt to be trusted. Your role as a mother is to protect your child - so do whatever is necessary. Gee I feel so lucky, I lOVE my kids partners! My darn second son has been living with a lovely girl for a few years and I wish they would get married - but thats none of my business! I'm thinking of proposing to her on his behalf!

I also agree with you girls on spacing kids if thats what feels best for you. I had two years between the first two and as I was young and energetic with a good support network of friends who were also at home with kids and had similar parenting styles, this worked fine BUT as everyone around me in those days was having 3 kids really close I was so glad I didnt have the next one close and LOVED having a four year gap. Next gap was 3 years which at the time felt a bit too close -I felt stretched to the limit but my girls are great friends so they obviously didn't suffer( they tandem nursed), then eight years. I think bigger gaps are great although depending on mother's ages, this isnt always an option.

I am always stunned at how so many parents make it their business to tell adult kids what they should do with their lives. I often wonder if its because they havent done all the mothering they should have done when their kids were small enough to mother - I reckon I have done enough mothering and can trust my kids are sensible people who will make good choices - or learn from the bad ones! Its their journey, and I have my own life to live. Maybe they need to "get a life!" These things arent their business.

My MIL died years ago - my hubby was her 'baby'. When I was pregnant with Sarah (no 4), she kept asking if I was goingto get my tubes tied when I was in the hospital. (of course not! it was enough to have ababy and no help from her or anyone else without also having surgery). I asked Rick (hubby) if she had said anything to him about a vasectomy. No she hadnt even broached the subject with him so, next time she asked me, I told her " we have been discussing this (she sighed sigh of relief)BUT we have decided we would like to have just one more baby. " Gee its fun to stir isnt it?

Hang in there ladies - this is YOUR family now - do it your way - you are all great mums!!!

Pinky

By Amys on Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 07:22 am:

Speaking of MILs last time mine was here she went through DHs wardrobe, took out all his (clean but unironed) clothes and sheets, TOOK THEM HOME, washed and ironed them! I was stunned. What could I say?? She's like that. I hate it.

By Amanda on Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 08:05 am:

Hey Pinky your giving us allot of timeline information to calculate and approximate your age lol!!
Ahhh if only all MIL's were like you...
Like your style too how you set MIL into a spin with a cheeky comment on future kids...
Amy your MIL sounds like a hoot… Well help her out and drop ‘em round or even better add your ironing to the mix! Make it a habit and see if she is so willing… And if she is happy to oblige, you are all happy! Right? Have fun and take care all Amanda

By Kimberley on Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 09:12 am:

Aargh MIL's, I agree with Amanda, would love one like Pinky!! Yes, I've nearly worked out your age too Pinky, much too young to become a grandmother!! My mum was a young grandmother when my sister had her first child 11 years ago and she used to beam when no-one believed her, but now she's not so thrilled. Amy, yours is a pain, do they think their darlings want everything spick and span and children who sit in the corner who don't say boo? (maybe they do, oh well, we know better so tough) My theory is if your doing too much laundry, there's no time for the other fun stuff, so really what would our hubbies choose if you get my drift!!!! To much ironing, a definite sign of sexual frustration, unfortunately I've been doing a bit too much of it lately, poor Damien!! Maybe if he did the ironing, I'd have more time and energy, now there's a thought!! take care girls, Kimberley

By Pinky on Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 09:46 am:

Geez Im not even going to become a washing / ironing MIL - when the big kids were teenagers their mates used to ask them "whats your mother ON?" Meaning I used to laugh alot at their antics and consequently got told too much information most of the time. After being asked this a squillion times I said, "just tell them I sniff the fabulon" - I had the biggest ironing basket you could ever imagine and whenever anything was 'lost' the joke was "check the ironing basket" So, despite the fact that I wouldnt have a clue how to use fabulon, the rumour started (and grew) that I sniffed the fabulon.

Cant imagine being bored enough to sort through anybodys wardrobe - even my own!

Mind you, as Amanda suggests, why not drop it all round to your MIL's and let her feel wanted and needed. My Nana came to stay at 89 (flew over from NZ) -she loved ironing said it was 'so satisfying' so I told her she was welcome to feel totally satisfied at my place - probably the only time my ironing basket ever got emptied.

Pinky

By Amanda on Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 12:43 pm:

Mmm well Jesse is my parent’s only grandchild...and they’re a ‘young at heart’ but not so young pair... My mum plus Poppy of course is incredibly proud of him! It is adorable but sometimes can get in the way. Ho-hum such is life. On Steve’s side his eldest sister had three children so not so new for them but just as special plus Jesse carries the Lalor name!
Your cracking me up Pinky...you’ve led a colourful life and with such good humour. Good for you! Perhaps I’m going to look to you for role modeling and inspiration!
Take care all Amanda

By Jo on Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 08:09 pm:

Why not post the address of your MIL Amy's then we can all take our unironed but clean washing around!!

I don't understand the whole ironing of manchester items, I have far more interesting things to do than to iron sheets and make sure my linen cubboard is neat and tidy. My MIL irons the lot, sheets, face washers, jocks!! But that's her role, she's a mother and nothing else, her outside interests are her family, pity they have all grown up. We visit for a weekend ( arrive on fri and leave on sunday) and come home with no washing to do!! It's brilliant. I use to get a bit uptight over the whole thing, especially when she came to our house, it was like a terratorial cat peeing episode. I didn't like it if she couldn't sit down with us after a meal, she had to clean up the dishes and the kitchen......Now I'm far more wiser.... I leave the washing and ironing, dishes, dirty floors the lot, if she wants to do she can, no guilt here, just more time for me to spend with the kids or in fact on my own having a coffee!!

Oh MIL's who'd have them.

Take Care

Jo. PS see other post on feeding/weaning for advice please.

By Kimberley on Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 09:13 pm:

Jo, I like your style, sometimes going with the natural order of things is a lot easier, clever you!!!

By Amanda on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 08:39 am:

Absolutely girls! I like it...
My mum irons manchester too. Again I feel its a generational thing to do. I often feel sorry for my mum in that she feels that she has to do it even though she doesn’t enjoy it. I think in many ways they are slaves to their generational expectations/values. I used to try an empower my mum to reclaim her voice/power but old habits die hard! I might be mellowing but sometimes they need our (new generational) support to break free of the irons so to speak! Anyway must be getting soft in my old age lol. Take care Amanda

By Amys on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 07:00 pm:

you guys crack me up! Great idea posting the address, but I noticed she didn't take any of mine or Molly's clothes home, only DHs!

Yeah Pinky, where do we buy MILs like you????

By Amanda on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 07:15 pm:

Lol Amy thats because she hasnt claimed you! or Molly... No subtly required in this case. Load em up and drop em off...

By Michelle on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 07:45 pm:

You crack me up Girls!
that 'sniffing the fabulon' comment had me on the floor in stitches!

You poor girls sure have it tough with your MIL's. I'm so lucky with mine. She babysits on Mondays while I work and Taliver just loves it. You should see his face when she leaves- he looks heartbroken!
I remember being paranoid when he was a newborn about MIL comments, but now I wish I'd listened to the advice she gave me! It was much better than the advice of the midwives which I was following at the time.

I would be mad if she ironed our sheets too! But I love it when she does the dishes or a load of washing, a godsend!
Amy- she must need DH to 'need' her. Which is actually a little bit sad. It almost sounds as if she's threatened because your now the #1 female in his life!
Oh well, next time you see her doing it, perhaps slip in a little 'oh, if your taking washing, heres some of mine and mollys to do too' maybe then she'll get it.

Michelle

By Amys on Tuesday, October 25, 2005 - 06:16 pm:

Yes, she does and it is sad. Nothing else in her life I should be more tolerant I guess, but I'd like to see her if I started going through her wardrobe!

Rachael, I can totally understand you not wanting to stay with your MIL. If instinct is saying 'don't do it' I'd listen.

By Nicky on Monday, October 31, 2005 - 06:51 pm:

Wow, catching up on the last 3 weeks postings has had me in tears: for tradgic losses; for admiration of strength; for joys of successes and then (thankfully) for the funny stuff. - I think the 'rough' day today obviously needed to let some safe emotion out....

You know, sometimes I get down in the dumps with having so little family support from either side, but then I hear all these horror stories of MIL and even their own mothers and it makes me appreciate that altho the family physical and emtoional support is minimal, at least we are all nice to each other when ever we do ever get together. My heart really goes out to all you girls who have to put up with that crap on top of trying to put in 200% for mothering (even if that is mostly spent in fatigue thru freq night wakings/ worry/ anxiety/ doubt/ swimming against the flow/ etc, etc ). I too really liked that quote: if you're worried about doing a good job, you must already be doing a great job and found it really useful when beating up on myself and spending too much time in my head.

Rachael (hugs) what an difficulat situation to be in. I have to agree, MIL sounds dangerous. I always quote the "nothing smaller than a ping pong ball or film canister" when around the ignorant, whilst watching like a hawk. If you did go to NZ some major assertive training may be in order to stand up for your right to parent how you choice and set out the guide lines of what isn't appropriate. But this is far to easy said and very difficult to do.... Good luck with your decision.

By the way, in answer to your question - we are in Perth, been married for 10 years, WIl is approaching 13 and a half months. We are trying for our 2nd child (even tho I question my impending sanity with the potential close age gap) as I am appraoching my late 30's.

And congrats Pinky. You are my icon too of the laugh a lot mum. My reminder to get out of my head, relax & enjoy!

Nicky

By Amanda on Tuesday, November 1, 2005 - 10:04 am:

Hi Nicky, Great to hear from you. An emotional rollercoaster as I like to call it... I’m sorry you don’t have more support close by. Even though my Mum treads on my toes now and then it is a help to have her on hand. Although as you say when you do catch up its always pleasant which is lovely. Good luck with trying for number two! Did you end up getting the couple of emails I sent you? Take care Amanda

By Kimberley on Tuesday, November 1, 2005 - 09:05 pm:

Hi Nicky
glad to hear from you. Thanks for the encouragement. I like what you said about putting in 200%, that's what it feels like. That's a shame you don't have much family support, I think in this day and age, people think we don't need it, especially if we've been independent in our lives BC. Raising children really is something that should be shared. I've kept up with my mother's group and have started going to the ABA meetings becasue I'm still b/feeding Elsbeth at 14 months. There's a mum in mother's group who is the AP anti-christ (a bit harsh I know) and challenges her son a lot, who doesn't seem very attached to her, sadly. She had the gall to ask me recently if I was still b/feeding with Elsbeth attached to my boob in public (obviously it bothered her). I wasn't quick enough, but should have said are you still feeding * cow's milk. I just don't feel compelled to be rude though, and tend to see the reason for her rudeness as her own feelings about not b/fing as she had mastitis early on and had to stop. Anyway, the rest of the group are pretty nice and she needs support in being a good mum. Another mum piped up that when her son wakes early, she puts him in bed with her and walla, they all get another hours sleep. It's good to have regular contact with other mums as it helps to reassure you that you're doing a good job and that others are having similar difficulties. ABA's been going well, not necessarily AP mums, but very caring mums.
Good luck with the next baby Nicky.
Kimberley

By Nicky on Sunday, November 6, 2005 - 07:02 pm:

I think I would have gone around the bend if it wasn't for a very down to earth mum's group - in fact I know I would have slipped off the rails. None of them AP but the core group really tried to be understanding of my view points of AP and CC- a couple of mums absolutely devistaed in the early days when their new borns did not want to cosleep!I hope it doesn't take too long to fall pregnant agian - altho I have no illusions of how tiring it will be, I'm interested to see how different it will be armed with a bit of knowledge this time, instead of the blind leading the blind.....
Interesting how people can be so insensitive, expect everyone to have the attitudes as themselves and quite shocked/vocal when this isn't the case. Yesterday in the organic shop at the markets, I was kindly explaining to the shopassistant and the lady in front of me aboutt he grain Quinoa and how to cook it (high in protein - great fo vegetarians!)I was explaining that I cook it the same as rice in my microwave - well she almost fell over. Couldn't beleieve I cooked wtih one - what was I bothering buying organic if I was going to microwave it(an assuption on her behalf). I was so stunned, but like you I did not feel compelled to lower to her level and be rude because she had different viewpoint. I'm still BF Wil, tho have't been able to in public since he was 6-7 mths old as everything else was far too interesting! Still get up overnight tho.

Unfortunately I didn't get your emails Amanda. Thankyou tho for taking the time to do so. If still relevant try resending to nicster19@people.net.au.
Nicky

By Amanda on Sunday, November 6, 2005 - 09:26 pm:

Hey Nicky... Thats really wonderful you have a group of mums though dont have the same ideas are very welcoming and supportive of you. If only there were more of those...it would make mothering much easier.
I feel the same in that I am looking forward to number 2 for the same reasons - knowing it doesnt have to be so hard and to be able to go with the flow and enjoy - but also knowing it will have its challenges.
Also know what you mean about BF in public and mr on and off again lol. Makes it hard.
Funny too about the lady and her openly rude reaction to your using a microwave. Regardless of her opinions she should remember its not her place.
Great thanks for the new email. I will send the other ones through again as I really think youll enjoy them. take care Amanda

By Kimberley on Monday, November 7, 2005 - 06:54 am:

Hi Nicky
that's great your mum's group is supportive, we're all in the same boat so why not be there for each other. I think it basically comes down to respecting each other's way of doing things, even if it's very different to our own. Though a bit of a peeve, when you're following good practice, such as bfing, and in your case, eating quinoa (what does it taste like btw?), and it's made out you're doing something wrong, aaagh.
Yes, I think with the next bub, I'll feel like I'm better prepared, but will also be aware of all the hard work that will come too, ah ignorant bliss is a good thing sometimes!!!
cheers Kimberley

By Megan on Monday, November 7, 2005 - 06:32 pm:

Hi girls, it's been a cpl of months since I last wrote- I've had computer dramas! A couple of months ago I posed a sleeping problem to the group. My four mnth old daughter Bella would only go to sleep in her vibrating rocker and had never slept a night in her cot and I was looking for techniques to get her out of her bouncer and into her own room. Well I thought I would update the situation. I tried all of the wonderful suggestions I was given but these had little success.I really stressed about this because literature I read suggested that we would have major sleep issues later on and she would never get a good nights'sleep and be a cranky child. I researched sleeping methods and tried everything and finally in the end she just figured it out herself the day she learnt to roll on to her tummy!I am pleased to report that she sleeps all night in her own cot and she puts herself to sleep- ah bliss! The lesson I have learnt from this is that I need to stress less and some things are just not in my control. I enjoy reading parenting books (and there are some wonderful ones available) but sometimes too much information is not a good thing.I don't believe there is such a thing as a "text book baby" all children learn and develop at their own pace. I've continued to read those magazines but I no longer take their words so seriously!
Megan

By Amanda on Monday, November 7, 2005 - 08:24 pm:

You are a wise women Megan. What a confidence builder. Happy that everything has worked out so well. You should write some inspirational words about your latest triumph and put on your fridge as a reminder for the future! Take care Amanda

By Nicky on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 01:59 am:

Yippee for you & Bella! Know that stressed out feeling, and (thankfully) the bliss when bubs finally work it out and can put themselves to sleep. I'm glad it happened so "soon" for you.

I agree with Amanda, write down a few lines about this triumph and the fabulous lesson learnt as it will really help you thru the next hurdel Bella throws at you. My motto now is "all in Wil's time" and he does get there in the end. I just need to constantly remind myself and only use the milestones and recommendation as a background awareness, not a guide.
Good luck
Nicky

By phoebe on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 04:13 pm:

I live in Bali Indonesia with my indonesian husband (I'm Australian)and my son...and I just thought people might be interested in how the other half live. Most of my friends live in small one room houses, some if they are lucky have a bathroom inside their room, others use a bathroom shared with up to 15 others and cook on the verandah. Many women are at home all day alone with babies whilst husbands work(although theyu have friends in the rooms next to them). Babies are never left to cry...never. They are breastfed constantly, every time they cry they are offered the breast...they are carried in slings and rocked to sleep by mums and dads. whilst I worry at the lack of stimulation babies are given (most have VERY flat heads because until they are around 7months they lay flat on their backs if they arn't crying). When I asked my friend recently how often her baby woke up during the night she replied laughing at me "I don't know...a lot" they don't time feeds or look at clocks all through the night to see how often they are wakeing.And they always sleep with their babies..in fact family beds are the norm, maybe when a new baby is born dad will sleep on the floor with the other children to give mum and babe space. And mothers ALWAYS have a sleep with their children in the afternoon. I'm not by anymeans saying that the culture is perfect, and I have some issues with womens place in this society...however since I gave birth to my son I have tried to pay little attention to clocks and we still at 6months dont have much of a routine (and that workks for us). My boy is late to bed and late to rise, like his mum and dad. In fact the only time I got really freaked out about his lack of routine was when we were in Australia and everyone kept asking me and telling me how hard it was going to get if I didn't get him to sleep before 11 or 12pm (its still fine)...in fgact the maternal health nurse nearly had a heart attack!!! I guess what I have tried to do is take what I like from both cultures...but I'm really glad thsat I have seen the indonesian way of life so that I don't feel bad when people tell me I'm doing wrong...how can you be wrong when ypu are following your intuition and letting that Lioness out to protect your bub.

By beck on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 05:30 pm:

phoebe yay this is exactly what i do and my family although we are not indonesian. the only time i get stressed is when i see my mchn (hence i am not going anymore). what a great job you are doing and it is refreshing to hear that you are relaxed with listening to your baby. i think sometimes western culture has gone mad with their routines and unbaby friendlyness. roar from one lioness to another!
love beck

By Pinky on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 05:41 pm:

A mighty roar to all you lioness mums!!
Thanks Phoebe for your lovely sharing. Certainly helps get things into perspective! It must be lovely to be able to move at your baby's pace - that afternoon rest is magic and should be compulsory! for all of us!!! babies or not.

Pinky

By rebeccab on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 02:34 pm:

ahhh, love the arvo nap. have started reading the continuum concept - i know a lot of you regulars have read it - and am having a bit of a perspective tweaking. loving hearing how you all go about things.
must now hydrate everyone after our sleeps on this hot hot melbourne day.
roaring with increasing ooomph,
becc

By Kimberley on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 10:01 am:

Wow Phoebe,
that's great to hear about the way things are done in Indonesia. How did western society lose the plot I wonder. Keep up the good work, roarrrr!!!

By Anonymous on Sunday, February 19, 2006 - 10:58 pm:

hi pinky,
my partner and i have recently tried controlled crying and my daughter has responded really well. she settles herself after about forty minutes of crying, however as i listen to this my heart breaks. we have tried attachment parenting techniques, but when she sleeps with us she wakes every twenty minute to two hours, and i find i cannot parent as well during the day as i am exhausted. but with the controlled crying, i feel disconnected from her and excessively guilty. is there any way to combine the two schools of thought? i have been recommended the controlled crying by all the professionals i have seen, yet it goes against my instincts. i would appreciate any help you could give me. all the women in my mother's group bottle feed thier babies, and actually seem to think that picking them up when they cry will spoil them! so i have no real help or sounding board for my ideas.
thanks, may

By Pinky on Monday, February 20, 2006 - 02:43 pm:

Congratulations on listening to yur instincts and questioning what doesnt feel right for you and your baby.

FORTY minutes is an excessively long time to leave a baby to cry - your own feelings are the best guide that this is not good for your baby or your relationship with your child.

You dont mention your baby's age but please remember you aren't 'teaching ' your baby to sleep by ignoring her ( she will be "shutting down" to to a stress response, not learning a legitimate skill) - but you are teaching her to love by responding to her communication.

I feel so sad about the mums in your mothers group and that you seem to feel inadequate/ undermined by their attitudes. Why not get along to an Australian Breastfeeding Association group near you and get some relevant support - they have experienced counsellors and a fabulous library and will be able to offer help at a local and personal level -I am finding it very difficult to keep up with a stack of individual emails re sleep issues and also have an ethical dilemma of giving advice by email without setting eyes on the baby or family (?health/ development/ attachment issues).

Pinky

By Amanda on Monday, February 20, 2006 - 10:20 pm:

Hi May, I think most of us have been there in that we have been desperate for our babies to sleep (more) and even resorted to some form of CC (which I greatly regret now that I am the wiser).
Please dont be too hard on yourself, Motherhood has its challenges, although do heed Pinkys words of advice.
Also you could consider attending an AP Mothers group. Especially if you are questioning such practices perhaps you would benefit from listening to how other mothers who feel the way you do cope and handle such situations... For me this was such a help.
We didnt start out co-sleeping although we did want to. It took a while before we could all sleep peacefully. There are a number of configurations you could try such as placing your family bed on the floor and your babys cot mattress beside it so that you all have more room. Or even take one side of the cot off and place the open side next to your family bed so you are in arms reach to attend to your babys needs as they arise.
It has been found that when mother and baby sleep side by side theyre sleeping cycles attune to one another so that you hardly wake when attending to them. So as a result you actually get more sleep. So what I am saying there are huge benefits to co-sleeping and more than just getting more sleep although this is your current goal I realise.
There could be any number of reasons your baby is waking so frequently during the night Ie hunger, hot/cold, allergies, scared needing reassurance, noise woke her, uncomfortable, growth spurt etc. Just think what if she is cold in the cot but has learned that her cry goes unanswered so she remains cold and silent.
For me it is important to do both – get to the bottom of any possible problems and then if there is nothing to find just go with the flow, allow baby their individuality and follow their lead.
I realise its tiring and yes lack of sleep does make being a good mother harder but try to ride this out without resorting to such methods. Try to nap when your baby naps, try to get trusted family/friends to help you out more.
Unfortunately the advice you are getting isn’t helpful and so you must feel so lost. If you want/need anymore support outside the forum please feel free to email me ana@wizbang.com.au for a chat.
Hope things start to improve and follow your heart Amanda

By Amanda on Monday, February 20, 2006 - 10:28 pm:

Oh I thought this might help as many non AP parents find it helpful. The No Cry Sleep Solution book. Elizabeh has a website too http://www.pantley.com/elizabeth/
Have you tried Pinkys book too for that matter?
HTH

By Cheryl Connolly on Friday, March 10, 2006 - 03:26 pm:

Hi there Pinky
First of all thank you for doing such an amazing thing of dedication and support via this forum and your classes, etc. This is so needed! You are an angel.

I have an eight week old and am in the middle of a dilemma between my instinct to have him fall asleep on me if he wishes, often by feeding, or to try the 'self-settle' approach, which I can see that although it may get the desired result it is ultimately an unnatural regime imposed by adults to fit (Western) adults' world.
Currently he will only fall asleep on me or his father; at night he sleeps more easily and transfers to cot after night feeding easily (I would co-sleep but father/breadwinner is a light sleeper and can't cope with the interrupted sleep so he is in a cot in our room which is enough less noise). However during the day this can be so trying and I am often holding him on me for what seems like hours (sore back, no lunch / breakfast/clean nappies) or if I transfer him to cot he wakes either then or after 10 / 20 / 40 minutes. On the one hand I feel this is fine and it's what a baby does; if living elsewhere in the world in a sling on mum's back with extended family / village to also hold / rock etc it wouldn't be an issue, but me at home only is hard to get myself fed and hydrated and basic chores done. Also I may be going to study (midwifery) when he is one or two years old and will have to therefore put him into daycare so am thinking of how they will manage him there. Father is reasonably sympathetic to my position but as his frustration increases (with lack of settling) then he swings to self-settle technique. We havn't tried it yet. Is there anything else to be done to teach him to fall asleep not associated with me, apart from the self-settle routine? Is the self-settle technique as currently taught by MCHN classes actually just controlled crying? Do you think using music (...for dreaming" cd) during the day but not in the middle of night will work, or would he expect it at night too? Could you elaborate more on how to slowley change the sleep cues (from me to other cues)? Also I am anxious that I will end up with an older toddler who still requires this and then try self-settling only to find it harder because older. Do you offer workshops on this issue? I would love to go to one!!
Thank you very much for your time
regards, cheryl.

By Jennifer D on Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 07:53 am:

Hi Cheryl, did you read the above input from Phoebe?? I do similar with my little person AND I LIVE IN AUSTRALIA!!!! I have 4 and half month old and he is not the best sleeper during the day, however the nights are pretty good. Try not to worry about the days too much. A friend once told me( she has 2 very healthy & happy older kids) that if you get a good night then the day won't seem too bad (even if it is), so try to do something about the night first. Don't worry my house looks like a hurricane hit it somedays too and I don't get much done. I have recently been going to a new parent group and alot of the mums say that their babies aren't sleeping much in the day either. We developed a night time routine as such of - Bath Feed Bed and I am slowly adapting some baby massage into that aswell. One of the most important things I read in your letter is about you staying hydrated. Breastfeeding or not - this is very important. Even though it might look untidy or be a bit of a pain - go buy some of those water bottles from supermarket and use them to be refilled. If you don't get the time- get hubby to fill them in the morning before work and leave them everywhere. You may find you have a lot more energy if you drink heaps of water.
i'm probably not the best person to give advice, but sometimes as nasty as it sounds it is encouraging to hear that other people have bad days too, you are probably doing an excellent job, take a good look at your little cutey for a good few minutes - is he/she healthy?? That's all a new mum can wish for. Possibly not an answer, but true story. Good luck. I know you will be the best mum you can be. Coming here is a brilliant start. Everyone is very helpful and lovely.
P.s -Hi Pinky & Everyone. Henry is doing well.Smarter than me already I think. LOL.
Jennifer D

By Michelle on Monday, March 13, 2006 - 04:34 pm:

Hi there Cheryl,
My son is now 2, still breastfed to sleep and in daycare. He sleeps through the night (most of the time) and has about an hour or so's nap each day (which he is also breastfed to sleep for). When he was 8 weeks old I was told by the MCHN nurse that I needed to get him into a routine and was taught how to get my son to 'self-settle' (yes, this is definately just another term for controlled crying, you still have to leave them alone and crying) I did this for a few weeks and it really didn't work for me. I would do it for a couple of days and then he would start going to sleep without much crying for a few more days, then he would start crying more and I thought there must be something wrong, so would go to him straight away and ended up back at the beginning again- having to go through all that crying again!
So then I started my seach for a sleep solution that would involve no crying. like you I knew I had to go back to work when he was 12 months old and was petrified that he wouldn't be settled enough for it.

There is something I really feel you need to know. Things will get EASIER, not harder!! Everyone used to tell me how it was harder to change things when they are 2, and how the baby sleeps all the time when it is an infant- Mine wasn't.
It was so tough back then, and i was so exhausted and so confused by all the conflicting info i was given.
I struggled on, looking for a way to fix him, but I didn't try CC again- against my husbands wishes. he is a light sleeper too, as well as working full time studying part-time. But I am stubborn, so I won out in the end. He has actually thanked me for not giving in since then too!

I wish instead of seeing his sleep patterns as a problem, that I had accepted that they were normal and natural and just been easier on myself. It is so hard when they are unsettled and crying.
Another thing I wish I had known about during this time, was that sometimes babies need to cry 'in-arms' to release tension and stress, even trauma from their birth experiences
Here is more information about this idea
http://www.awareparenting.com/comfort.htm

I have done this with Taliver and have found he is a much more placid toddler than he was a baby.

With daycare, it did take him about a month to adjust, he was only going once a week and my carer was quite understanding. She didn't just put him in a room until he went to sleep, she listened for his crying and when she felt he was getting upset, she would go in to him. I think it was easier because i wasn't actually there to listen to the crying. That was when I gave up worrying about his sleep, because i knew he was sleeping at daycare so it obviously didn't correlate to what i did at home anyway. Thats when I went back to breastfeeding him to sleep (by that stage he would pull off when he was ready anyway.) And I started him napping in my bed so that when he was asleep i could just remove the breast and sneak out.
I would highly recommend lying down with your baby for a nap, (have you worked out how to feed lying down? it is the absolute best position!) hopefully this will help you feel rested, and because you don't have to move him, it may be easier to get him to sleep and when if you are there when he first starts to wake, put him back to the breast and he may sleep a bit longer. If you feel you must use his naptime to get things done (I must admit i am highly guilty of this) perhaps you could have a matress on the floor to lie down with him? same thing, once he stirs lie down again and try to get him back to sleep straight away, hopefully that will help with the unsettledness.

I agree with all that Jennifer said, especially about feeling better when you year about other peoples bad days! I used to hate going to mother's group absoultely sleep deprived only to hear the other mums complaining about their babies waking 2-3 times a night (mine was probably waking 5-8 times a night at the time). I sometimes wonder whether their babies sleep as well as Taliver does now though.

Anyway, must go, munchkin wants to read a book
good luck, IT WILL GET EASIER!!

By Pinky on Monday, March 13, 2006 - 11:35 pm:

Hi Cheryl,
Thanks for your lovely comments.

Have you read 100 Ways to calm the Crying? There is some info there on gradually making changes - more to come in my new book - due out July.

Meanwhile, it really isnt helpful to worry so far ahead despite all the scary info from people who tell you that if you cuddle and rock now your child will always expect this - a newborn's needs are vastly different from a one or two year old - for the first four months or so babies enter sleep through an acive sleep phase and this is why many little ones need help to settle. Later, they find it easier to settle without so much help , to sleep longer and also to amuse themselves for longer periods so you will get a bit more time for you.

It is VERY INTENSE at 8 weeks - but I promise!! in a month or so things will seem easier.It is so hard to imagine that your baby will EVER need you less than he does right now, but really, he is still getting used to the world - trying to force him to self settle is just a less nasty name for controlled crying.

Also, the research shows that babies who are attended to responsively in the first six months are less demanding as toddlers -so enjoy the 'now' / stay in the present - smell your baby, nuzzle his fine hair, look into his eyes and watch and wonder - these days really will pass quickly!

Meanwhile try and work out ways to meet your own needs - I have a list of tips in Parenting by Heart. - the reprint is finally available. Can you afford to hire help just occasionally? A doula? I know a fabulous doula in melbourne. Do you have a sling? Can you carry your baby in a sling to get a few things done then rest when he does - sit on the couch with remote and water bottle/ stock up on simple, healthy foods that are easy to eat with one hand and will sustain you- boiled eggs, yoghurt, canned tuna, fruit ( dried and fresh).

Make double meals so you can freeze or keep extra in the fridge -spagetti sauce,a big pot of soup, quiche (I have a great simple recipe that you throw together and add flour - flour sinks to bottom forming base), risotto can be fiddly but a big bowl in the fridge will give you healthy lunches for a few days. It doesnt matter if you dont have lots of variety as long as the foods you do have are nourishing.

Where do you live? I am rethinking my options re venues/ areas and classes but really dont want to travel too far from Wantirna - I am finding local is easy and less tiring for me. Baby massage classes offer discussion time and lots of tips around settling.

Must get to bed - was just having a quick peep here!

Pinky

By Jill M on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 04:48 pm:

Hi all, I have enjoyed reading everyone's posts, and am hoping there may be some advice out there for us.

My 20 month old son Jamie is our youngest of four, and is still waking frequently at night and having trouble settling back to sleep. My husband and I have never been fans of controlled crying, so we keep getting up and my husband sometimes spends hours trying to get him back to sleep. We both work full time, so we are mostly functioning on auto pilot. My husband is usually the one who gets up at night, as I cannot get back to sleep once I wake. My husband suffers from sleep apnea, so he falls asleep again instantly, however he is constantly fatigued. Neither of us can figure out a better way to deal with our situation.

I was thinking of going to a naturapath for some advice, and I was wondering whether this is good idea or not. Jamie has had some diet problems in the past. He was diagnosed with reflux as a small baby, and I was advised to express every feed for the first few months of his life, and feed him with a bottle. This caused my milk to evenutally decline, and I was advised to top him up with formula. The paediatrician had me on every different formula, until he had two allergic reactions and was placed wholly on a synthetic formula until 12 months of age. I now recognise that I should have persisted with breastfeeding, but even after having 3 other children, I thought I was doing the right thing by following the doctor's advice.

Jamie now suffers from recurrent bronchitis, and I have tried all the conventional antibiotics that the doctor prescribes, but nothing helps. He frequently coughs at night, causing him to wake, and he then has trouble going back to sleep. I really feel that his sleep problem relates to this rather than wanting to get up and play. I am wondering whether any other mums have children like this, and whether there may be something in the diet that is causing it. The paediatrician has given me an inhaler to use, but I am really doubting the advice I'm getting because it doesn't work. Jamie has had all the skin tests for allergy, and nothing shows up, so I am at wits end.

He cries a lot during the day too, and wants to be constantly picked up and cuddled (which we both do all the time), but it breaks my heart to see him miserable. On the plus side, he is over the 100% for height and weight, so he's doing okay there, and he's very active and mischevious. I have to admit to using a dummy, he seems to take comfort from it, so I'm not keen to stop using it until I can figure out what's wrong, if anything.

My older children have also been suffering as a result of the constant attention we have to give to Jamie, and we are having some feelings of guilt about that. Luckily I have a very supportive husband, but we don't have any family support, so we are coping on our own.

I would be most grateful for any advice from the forum. I am located in Oakleigh if anyone has any suggestions for services in the area.

By Pinky on Saturday, March 18, 2006 - 05:08 pm:

Hi Jill,

What a lot of stress for you with 4 children and working ful